It’s not just paperless voting machines. The theft was organized on many fronts—fraudulent registration practices, voter intimidation and misinformation, too few machines (resulting in daylong lines), paper ballots (and reg forms) thrown out... To succeed, this investigation will have to cover all the channels of deceipt.

mitch clogg, mitchc@mcn.org, www.newifstone.com Mendocino, CA

It’s certainly clear that the democrats conspired to subvert democracy by rigging exit polling, as has already been shown.

Be careful with conspiracy theories. Sometimes the beam in one’s own eye is more important than the mote in the other guys.

Kerry , Mr "Help is on the Way" , didn’t say anything.

We thought that with those 10,000 lawyers he had on hand that something was going to be done to at least look into things before conceding to President Bush. That appears to be a smokescreen, to give us false confidence. He is one of them, of course, nobody gets to run unless they pass the test of loyalty to the Elite who-ever-they-are-s.[NWO]

So did Kerry ever intend to win? Or was he chosen specially to run against Bush? Post-election action seems to show that he isn’t fighting to win.

The whole campaign was sorely short of good material. He could have used some of the material we all come across on the conspiracy of 9-11, for example "Why did building #7 fall down Mr President?"]. Or ties to Bin Laden family - which may be innocent, but it could have changed voters minds about Bush. Or done some effort into showing the size of the deficit and debt and what that means for the next budget, and the long term. Or why not - Micheal Moore? They say anyone who watched the film would not vote Bush - and that is something to look into - how many saw the movie VS how many voters chose Bush... albiet not all viewers voted, but if half the nation saw the film and none voted Boosh, then Bush got more votes than possible. Silly notion that could not be used obviously, just one more indication, irregularity, to be all coincidence.

So it was to be expected that Kerry would give in easily, with a fake show [the lawyers] of demands for honesty and clarity in the election results .

A Canadian.

NEWSWEEK: NADER WAS RIGHT

The Democrats didn’t need his help to lose the election. Kerry’s failure to address gay marriage was a fatal mistake

My reply, That is nonsense. Kerry did not make any significant mistakes in his message and he got the majority of the votes nationally. The election was stolen, that’s the problem, the problem that dwarfs all others. Theft occurred in 2000 and is now the intended outcome of the 2008 election. As I have said repeatedly in post after post, the crypto-fascists have taken over the United States government and they DON’T intend to ever relinquish power. We have just had demonstrable evidence of that fact.

for the cause,

Klo

Democrats can NEVER seem to accept that they

LOST!

Tough .... get over it.

4 more years :)

Now I see why Bush was SO certain he was going to win... I hope somebody besides Ralph Nader pushes for an investigation. There’s definitely something wrong with the election result!

If a probable fraud like this goes unchallenged, the same thing will happen in 2008...

Indeed, it’s quite suspicious how the republicans are trying to smokescreen the problem by badmouthing the exit polls — which have been around for ages —, instead of supporting a long overdue assessment of these electronic voting machines.

Read this story

http://www.ilcaonline.org...

and thoroughly look at the results of the 04 presidential election in Florida. For example, out of the 440 registered REP and 2755 registered DEM in the county of Lafayette county, 2460 voted REP and 845 voted DEM. Similarly look at the counties of Calhoun, Dixie, Liberty, and dozens other small counties - the expected vote has completely flipped for the REPs. Take a look at this chart based on 100% of the votes recieved

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

pay attention to the percent change of expected votes based on party affiliation and the actual turnout (in the left columns). However, this flip in the voting pattern doesnt occur in counties with 30,000+ registered voters. I assume they expected us not to notice the smaller counties.

Everyone including pollsters expected a much closer race in Florida and were suprised by the results of the election

WE HAVE MAJOR VOTER FRAUD IN FLORIDA

I beg of the media to take notice of this

You are all idiots. Everyone knows in the North Florida counties, many registered Democrats are conservatives dating back decades but who vote Republican. It’s like the Reagan Democrats popularized in Michigan. Their families have been Democrat for decades, but they’re arch conservatives.

Your messages lack any background on how people behave in the state.

This site tries to consolidate all the arguments and counter-arguments:

http://thesquanderer.com/votingmachines

Blue Lemur has the early poll numbers, but it’s not very official looking.
http://www.bluelemur.com/...

But for further proof here is an AP story blaming bloggers for trusting the early poll numbers- proving that there were early numbers favoring kerry.
http://news.yahoo.com/news...

"Doing an early poll is like reporting the results of the game at halftime," Lenski said. "You only have about a third of the information. No other survey research is held to that level of accuracy."

Then we have the proof (screenshots) of CNN changing their poll numbers in the middle of the night- click link in article above

And then most damning is this NY Times article from October:
Exit Polls to Protect the Vote
http://www.nytimes.com/...

So the exit polls are there to ensure the vote, but if they’re off it’s just a fluke? Why would anyone believe anything this administration has to say... the whole world knows they lied to start this evil war, and now our alternative Anybody But Bush belives them without question- with 250,000 votes nots counted he caves in and tells us all to get in line behind this village idiot taking the world toward destruction?

Bob Fertik seems to be doing a good job covering the vote fraud as well
http://democrats.com/

Hey Europeans- please help us expose this scam, make it international news that cannot be ignored. We must expose this before ’the next attack’ because exposing it will prevent the next attack as it’d be too obvious who will benefit from it.

lol- we already know that, and it’s that same evil cabal that is stealing this election.

1961 In his farewell speech Eisenhower warns America about the ’Military Industrial Complex’ gaining too much control and endangering our liberties.
1963 Kennedy signs order to withdraw troops from Vietnam
1963 20 some days later JFK asassinated (not by lee harvey oswald)
1967 MLK changes from just civil rights movement to anti-war as well
1968 MLK shot 1 month before Bobby Kennedy

You say i’m a conspiracy ’theorist’, i say the conspiracies are real- i have proof to back me up, you have name calling.

See this close-up slow motion video of JFK’s asassination (graphic) but very telling. First shot thru the back, next shot from the right front hits JFK in the right temple.

http://fluxview.com/v/ZapruderKennedyAssasination-SlowMo.avi

Undeniable proof of a 2nd shooter... but i’m still nuts... because you saw the computer-animated re-enactment on ABC tv and they must be telling the truth, right? It’s not like they’re a multinational corparation that is profitting from the unjust policies of our fascist dictator.

re: the video proof- the link is down at the moment, hopefully the site will be up later so just save the link and try again tomorrow. and you might need to download this codec, but it’s well worth it to prove to yourself and friends that this conspiracy was/is real
http://www.divx.com/divx/download/

since the video link is down i have provided this screenshot- notice JFK’s head has fallen to the left from the force of impact on his right temple.... clearly not a shot from the back.

You cannot possibly be serious.

Regards,

Reynolds Jones Schenectady, NY

I hope you do continue to pursue justice in this. Many Americans are horrified by this outrage and need to make themselves heard. It may be our last chance to be effective in the defense of our Democracy.

Ralph Nader is launching lawsuits to bring some sunshine to what happened to us, and I suggest you record your experience on his website.

This article will chill your soul:

http://www.baltimoresun.com...

An Election Day clouded by doubt

By Avi Rubin Originally published October 27, 2004

ABOUT 50 MILLION Americans will cast their ballots for president on touch-screen terminals Tuesday. If my experience as an election judge is any guide, voters will love these machines, which are generally easy to use and which easily accommodate voters who have disabilities or do not speak English.

And if my experience as a computer scientist is any guide, those voters will not realize just how dangerous it is to rely on these machines to conduct a free and fair election with a reliable result.

Voting on a direct recording electronic voting machine, or DRE, is in many ways similar to transferring money from one account to another at an automated teller machine. But there is one critically important difference: no receipt. There will be no physical record produced that could later be used by your local election board to prove how you intended to vote.

After you cast your ballot on a DRE, the only official record of your choices will be the electronic record within the system itself. You will not be asked to look at a piece of paper that confirms your candidate selections. You will not leave that piece of paper behind for use in case of a recount.

Why is this a problem?

Without paper ballots that can be physically examined, the only recount possible is a review of the votes recorded by the DRE system itself. And if those votes were recorded incorrectly, no recount will fix the error. The incorrect result could never be detected, much less corrected.

And incorrect results are entirely possible. Largely because of Florida’s problems in 2000, there has been a headlong rush nationwide to adopt DRE voting. Touch screens will be used in this election despite numerous studies, by my colleagues and me and by others, showing that the machines from the leading manufacturer, Diebold Election Systems, are poorly designed, with lax security and programming errors.

All of Maryland except Baltimore City will be using the Diebold AccuVote-TS machines. Nationwide, about one-third of all ballots will be cast electronically.

Technical glitches and malfunctioning machines - the kinds of problems that occur with any computer system - could result in the loss of votes in unrecoverable ways. Worse, these fully electronic machines could be rigged - undetectably, because of the complexity of the software that runs them.

While we can never eliminate the possibility of tampering with elections, the impact of an attack on a DRE system would likely be more serious than the results of tampering with traditional mechanical voting machines or paper-based systems, such as optically scanned ballots. This is because a bug in the software of an electronic voting system, whether accidental or intentional, has the potential to skew results in more than an isolated polling place or two. It could impact the vote totals on many thousands of machines in hundreds of precincts.

Elections, by their nature, are adversarial. In a successful election, the loser should be as convinced as the winner that the outcome is legitimate, despite the potentially strong party loyalties of the people running the mechanics of the process.

One of our safeguards in the United States is that members of the two principal parties are present to watch each other through every facet of an election. The utility of this security measure is diminished when the votes are invisible and the counting is virtual. DREs reduce the transparency of the voting process, and traditional checks and balances become ineffective.

Even if, on Wednesday, this election appears to have been a success, there will be no way of knowing for sure whether the will of the people was accomplished.

And even if there is no problem Tuesday, that does not imply that the election was secure - only that no one chose that day to exploit the insecurity. If an apparent success in November leads to greater adoption of fully electronic voting in the future, then subsequent elections will be even more vulnerable, providing increased incentive to attackers and, at the same time, more avenues for attack.

For voters to have confidence in the election process, it should be as transparent as possible. When technology that is inherently opaque is used in elections, peoples’ confidence in the process will be justifiably shaken.

There are ways in which DREs provide an apparent advantage over butterfly ballots and hanging chads. But there are other ways in which these systems, implemented without voter-approved paper ballots that allow meaningful recounts, are potentially much worse.

Our goal should be voting technology that is beyond reproach. That goal may never be fully attainable, but we must do better than this. The foundation of our democracy is at stake, and thus, ultimately, so is our freedom.

Avi Rubin is a professor of computer science at the Johns Hopkins University.

Copyright © 2004, The Baltimore Sun

TrueVoteList mailing list TrueVoteList@mail.truevotemd.org https://lists.truevotemd.org/mailman/listinfo/truevotelist

Optical scan votes are COUNTED by Diebold machines.

"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin

1. Please don’t call Democrats Progressive. What a joke. Okay, compared to the Rove/Robertson axis, maybe but please.

2. More and more people are becoming suspicious — not convinced — that something fishy went on with the electronic voting and counting machines. Before the election, it’s likely that a lot of them thought that the anti-electronic voting activists were just a bit alarmist. Speaking for myself, I’m much more concerned about assuring and protecting fair and free elections than I am about overturning any one "result".

If the Bush supporters are so confident that they kicked such ass, why do they seem to be the most resistant to looking into this stuff?

JTCA

1. Please don’t call Democrats Progressive. What a joke. Okay, compared to the Rove/Robertson axis, maybe but please.

2. More and more people are becoming suspicious — not convinced — that something fishy went on with the electronic voting and counting machines. Before the election, it’s likely that a lot of them thought that the anti-electronic voting activists were just a bit alarmist. Speaking for myself, I’m much more concerned about assuring and protecting fair and free elections than I am about overturning any one "result".

If the Bush supporters are so confident that they kicked such butt, why do they seem to be the most resistant to looking into this stuff?

JTCA

I disagree

1. The Right has never admitted a defeat, I listened to enough of Limbaugh and other Right Wingers during the Clinton years to know that. Is it sleaze? Yes. Is it necessary for the base? Yes. Is our base different from theirs? *shrug*

2. Your mindset, in all honestly, precludes facing the possibility of real fraud. I guarded a poll in Cleveland, together with a fine young attorney from NY. We saved, in one way or another, 3 votes — at one small polling location. To save one of them, she had to take the woman in question and drive to Election HQ. We saw no actual fraud at our location. Does that mean that I should discount the possibility of fraud at other locations? Not if I’m a thinking person. Had we not been there, three people would not have voted — and that was on the antiquated punch card ballots.

3. Statistical analysis strongly indicates that fraud is more likely than a genuine win. While it is easier to say "oh, we lost, we should give up." that accomplishes nothing if in fact this is a case of fraud. As for Nixon and Thune — I don’t believe that either one was any more, or as much — indicative of fraud as 2000 and this present election are — and I do not think that the progressive cause would have been better served by having them win. Please explain your reasoning.

Of course I admit, I’m not a "progressive," I’m an old fashioned f**ing liberal leftist, thank you.

Regards,

Reynolds Jones Schenectady, NY

lol- has anyone here seen an actual intelligent argument from a bush supporter? It seems that every Bush supporter has nothing intelligent to say, just stupid comments, you sore losers etc.

If they were real Americans, they would be concerned about their team having to intimidate voters in poor counties to win. Are you proud that in rural republican states there are no lines to votes, but in cities where many poor minorities live they were forced to wait in line for up to six hours, someitmes in the pouring rain?

An honest American would want to win fair and square, not like these PAID FREEPERS whose job is to ridicule. HA HA look at my tinfoil hat- when i look at the actual vote tally pdf from franklin county ohio, it shows 4,258 votes for Bush when no other vote had nearly that many... even CNN picked up this story.

if kerry won by a hair, would bush have just given up even though there were tons of ’irregularities’? Would karl rove just give up like that? no way. skull and bones is not just a conspiracy theory anymore.

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that Dems are the only ones involved in devious little plots because that’s the self-righteous denial mantra of the right.

Your post only reinforced why I’m a Dem as it was the most juvenile, inane, immature load of crap I’ve heard in days (and that’s saying something). Whether the theories are correct or not, you only served in revealing yourself as a moron. Perhaps if you had spent more time reading some facts instead of typing that idiotic "ha, ha" over and over (you DO seem to have too much time on your hands - was the lunch rush over at McDonald’s?) we could actually have something to debate about here. We ALL live in this country whether you like it or not and that kind of attitude isn’t helping us solve anything. What’s next? You’ll call us "poo-poo heads"???

Why does it seem like every single post from Republicans on this thread is mean and nasty? Don’t you have something better to do like go to a Republican site and sit and gloat about your bought election. This was the closest presidental race since 1916. This wasn’t the majority chosing Bush this was America divided. Half the American population wants his ass out of office. While I think it is important to continue to fight for any misconduct at the polls I also think now Bush gets to figure out how the hell to deal with Iraq and guess what now he gets to clean up his own mess or fall on his face. He can’t blame Kerry for the war he started and chances are as the Iraq mess gets worse and we spend more and more money on it, the American public will have had enough. Republicans there is nothing to be proud of here your president has broken the nation in two.

To the post above if you are getting entertainment out of the situation in America you make me sick, but I am proud to know that the " whining " that we are doing is to protect the voting rights and privileges that we are all guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States of America.

You demean only yourself. I spent the first 10 years of my voting life voting 100% Republican. My registration should still be on file in Albany. I switched parties largely because of people just like you. Then I discovered that the Left was right — which was an awful shock to me at the time, and have been voting Democratic for the last 10 years — and the rest of my life I suspect.

Thank you for reminding me what utterly worthless garbage those on the side to which I used to belong are.

Regards,

Reynolds Jones Schenectady, NY

I think you have it wrong....it’s not ha ha....it’s only a matter of time before you here, "AHA." As in Eureka! Votergate! This reminds me of the election in ’72 after the Watergate break-in.....that was investigated by a couple of determined newspaper reporters. I believe the U.S. still has some committed souls who are willing to do the leg work to get to the bottom of this. It will just take one whistleblower to get it started....and Bev Harris with www.blackboxvoting.org could just be the beginning of a nice investigation into the corruption of our election process.

Remember, ’The Jersey Girls’ didn’t quit in their demands for an investigation into 9/11 and the American people are not going to rest when our Democracy is at stake.

It just a small dedicated group of people to change the world. ’AHA!’

The graphs contrast exit poll results to actual votes and suggest that only fraud could explain the discrepancies, but the evidence presented is highly selective.

Statisticians please comment (and state your professional qualifications): what kind of statistical comparison would be meaningful? If all the exit polls in the country were compared to actual results, couldn’t we determine the probability that a particular result in a particular precinct could have occured by normal variability, as opposed to error or fraud?

Pollsters please comment (and state your professional qualifications): some imply that the exit polls should be discounted because they are partisan or unscientific. Who carried out the exit polls - what polling companies in what states? It is my impression that polls are conducted by the major polling companies in a disciplined scientific manner and used to set the margin or errors, and that actual results outside the margin of error are suspect. True?

I believe the argument can only be won through statistical analysis.

I’m finishing up my PhD in Biostatistics. If we we can get some valid election result numbers, I would truly enjoy working on this project!

Susan

Enough already! Am I the only person to take a 30+ year history of voting Republican and move my party affiliation to the Democratic camp? You may think so, but you would be incorrect.

There are a number of honorable men and women in the GOP that have either changed Party affiliation or stood up to say. "Enough Already!"

So before you continue bashing the DEMS for wanting an accounting, consider this. We as a country NEED to repair the system and restore credibility in not only the eyes of the world, but in the hearts of the individual voter in this country.

Have we as a nation become so lazy as to no longer be willing to take pencil to paper and make our voices heard?

Will we once again put off addressing the need to standardize voting procedures until some months before the election next time when it’s too late.

Will we adopt legislation to standardize the handling of absentee or provisional ballots so individual precincts don’t decide how to handle them?

Will we find it too inconvenient to push for legislation to deal with the disenfranchisement of voters? I certainly hope not.

I applaud the efforts of those individuals challenging the system here. Everyone will benefit.

Think of the future if you will. If we can restore a system of elections in this country that assure the voters their vote will count, and that the results of that election are incontrovertible, both sides will win.

It should be the desire of all parties to seek an election where no matter who won, their Administration could begin without the clouds of doubt and deception that harm us today.

If my candidate wins, I’ll know he won honorably. Then we all win.

Thanks for your time.

J.C. Rich

"...how do you dispose of the inconvenient fact that ’moral values’ (not the economy or the war) was the dominant theme that voters cited to explain their selections in the voting booths?"

Perhaps some voters considered fabricating intelligence to justify an illegal war in Iraq as immoral? I don’t know, but it seems kind of immoral to me.

Here’s a different perspective:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110804_stolen_election.shtml

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=bushuncensored.wmv

Its hard to believe there are so many gullible people that would elect this guy president.

Well, the first thing it takes is someone in good standing to make the charge and call for an investiation. That person would be John F. Kerry. Since Kerry is satisfied with the results then all other complaints (represented in part by the tinfoil hat club here) don’t amount to a hill of beans.

I suggest you get over it and move on.

In a non-partisan way, can anyone explain why these numbers do not add up in Ohio?

Total Votes Cast 5,574,476 Provisional Ballots Issued 155,428

Breakdown of Candidates Badnarik 14,331 Bush 2,796,174 Cobb 24 Duncan 5 Harris 0 Kerry 2,659664 Parker 0 Peroutka 11,614 Schriner 14 Zych 5 Total 5481804

I don’t know if provisional ballots have been included in total votes cast, but this suggests at least 92,672 people either wrote in an uncounted name or didn’t vote for a presidential candidate? Is this possible?

Just wondering...

I am not from the US, but what the fuck is wrong with your country???!!!

you people RE-ELECTED this psycopath? Sure, once was an honest mistake, but twice?? I thought it obvious that Bush was not fit for office. It should have been a landslide.

The only hope the US has, is for the people to show the world you don’t support Bush and his crazy ideas. I hear that congress can impeach his arse after the 2006 elections. Go for it.

Yours,

Concerned Fellow Earthling.

new Zapruder link shit got moved around

Arsenal of Vote Fraud Video evidence

I find this one particularly apalling
Ohio Vote Supressioin

more in Fluxview, USA