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Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq

by : Jonathan Steele
Thursday April 14, 2005 - 03:50
51 comments

The US is failing - and hatred of the occupation greater than ever

by Jonathan Steele

Saddam Hussein’s effigy was pulled down again in Baghdad’s Firdos Square at the weekend. But unlike the made-for-TV event when US troops first entered the Iraqi capital, the toppling of Saddam on the occupation’s second anniversary was different.

Instead of being done by US marines with a few dozen Iraqi bystanders, 300,000 Iraqis were on hand. They threw down effigies of Bush and Blair as well as the old dictator, at a rally that did not celebrate liberation but called for the immediate departure of foreign troops.

JPEG - 36 kb

For most Iraqis, with the exception of the Kurds, Washington’s "liberation" never was. Wounded national pride was greater than relief at Saddam’s departure. Iraqis were soon angered by the failure to get power and water supplies repaired, the brutality of US army tactics, and the disappearance of their country’s precious oil revenues into inadequately supervised accounts, or handed to foreigners under contracts that produced no benefits for Iraqis.

From last autumn’s disastrous attack on Falluja to the huge increase in detention without trial, the casualties go on rising. After an amnesty last summer, the numbers of "security detainees" have gone up again and reached a record 17,000.

The weekend’s vast protest shows that opposition is still growing, in spite of US and British government claims to have Iraqis’ best interests at heart. It was the biggest demonstration since foreign troops invaded.

Equally significantly, the marchers were mainly Shias, who poured in from the impoverished eastern suburb known as Sadr City. The Bush-Blair spin likes to suggest that protest is confined to Sunnis, with the nod and wink that these people are disgruntled former Saddam supporters or fundamentalists linked to al-Qaida, who therefore need not be treated as legitimate. The fact that the march was largely Shia and against Saddam as much as Bush and Blair gives the lie to that.

Some Sunnis attended the march, urged to go there by the Association of Muslim Scholars, which has contacts with the armed resistance. This too was an important sign. Occupation officials consistently talk up the danger of civil war, usually as an argument for keeping troops in Iraq. It is a risk that radicals in both communities take seriously.

Moqtada al-Sadr, the Shia cleric who organised the latest march, recently joined forces with the National Foundation Congress, a group of Sunni and Shia nationalists, to affirm "the legitimate right of the Iraqi resistance to defend their country and its destiny" while "rejecting terrorism aimed at innocent Iraqis, institutions, public buildings and places of worship".

The key issue, now as it has been since 2003, is for the occupation to end quickly. Only this will reduce the resistance and give Iraqis a chance to live normally. In a new line of spin - which some commentators have taken to mean that the US is preparing for a pullout - US commanders claim the rate of insurgent attacks is down.

The figures are not independently monitored. Even if true, they may be temporary. Thirdly, they fly in the face of evidence that suggests the US is failing. Most of western Iraq is out of US control. The city of Mosul could explode at any moment. Ramadi is practically a no-go area.

In any case, the US is only talking of a possible reduction of a third of its troops next year. This will still leave 100,000. The US argues that a complete withdrawal has to be "conditions-related, not calendar-related" or, as Blair puts it, there can be no "artificial timetable". By that, they mean Iraq’s security forces have to be strong enough to replace the Americans and British, a totally elastic marker.

That is surely the message that Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, is giving this week on his ninth trip to Baghdad since April 2003. Whenever there is an alleged transfer of power to Iraqis, this time to a "government" elected in a flawed poll, Rumsfeld comes with instructions.

His public warning is for Iraq’s leaders not to make any changes in the army and interior ministries, or postpone the writing of a constitution. Behind the scenes, he is probably telling them not to ask for a withdrawal timetable, and sounding them out on the opposite. The US has indicated that it wants permanent bases in Iraq, just as it does in Afghanistan - which is why the joint Sadr-National Foundation Congress statement says the government "will have no right to ratify any agreement or treaty that might affect Iraq’s sovereignty, the unity of its territory and the preservation of its resources".

Poland has just announced it is pulling out of Iraq at the end of the year, just as Spain did last year. Italy is wavering on the verge of a similar decision. If Blair wants to regain the trust he lost before the Iraq war, his best approach would be to announce the same by May 5. He would help Iraqis as well as himself.

j.steele@guardian.co.uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/s...



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Commentaires de l'article
 

> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday April 14 - 12:30 - Posted by 25fd1ed9dde41f7f...

The main priority of the coalition forces now is to get Iraqis killing Iraqis so that the theft of the countries natural resources can become a hidden side issue.
Also if they can set up a proxy democracy, which in reality will be a Washington puppet show, they can continue to demand $billions from Iraq for ’rebuilding’.

This plan was formulated by the neo cons months before 9/11, instigated initially by Bush snr.




> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 15 - 03:29 - Posted by 36128142307874e0...

Well it couldn’t have been thought up by Jr. having fried his brains on alcohol and cocaine years ago. Does anyone know when Jenna Bush’s Butt Dance video will be available? Her parent must be so proud.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 12:03 - Posted by 0f0737a5ef229a77...

Shia killing Sunni, and Sunni killing Shia is the most common and natural thing in the world.
They have been murdering each other with great energy and dedication ever since the death of "Allah’s Apostle" in the seventh century. No one has to "get"them to do it. Murder, Mass murder and rape are the most holy sacraments of Islam. If they could work out a rationale, the left would try to blame America for teen acne, flat feet and the fact that wine will turn to vinegar.[leftists recently tried to blame America for the German death camps in WWII]



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday April 30 - 02:42 - Posted by 70c80c257c14894d...

How many times have you visited Medain, IRAQ? Medain is a town of Sunnis and Shia who have lived together peacefully for as long as anyone can remember. The people in the town come from the local "Ashayir" or tribes. It’s one of those places where everyone knows everyone else- even if only by name or family name. The tribes who dominate the town are a combination of Sunni and Shia. Any conflicts between the townspeople are more of the tribal or family type than they are religious.
This is from Baghdad, where real people live and real people are experiencing the occupation. There were recently false reports of a hostage situation between these groups and the AP had to announce that it was a rumor. These are not leftists, these are people suffering in a place where rape and mass murder are not the holy sacraments of Islam. Please, know and understand the religion you are speaking of before blindly spreading rumors about it. By the way, how many Islamic Temples exist in the US? Are they teaching "Rape and Mass murder there?"



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday April 30 - 21:31 - Posted by dc0c6076d35a2ec7...

Yes, yes, and yes.
I think, having read the Qur’an three times, having read the Sirat Rasul Allah twice, having studied the Sahih al Bukhari, and having studied middle eastern history for over twenty years, I know Islam quite well enough. I also know the meaning and uses of "TAQIYYE", so take yer bullshit and hit the road.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday April 16 - 04:51 - Posted by 36128142307874e0...

Sorry Britain is never going to withdraw from Iraq. Nation pride. By the way it was a British officer who drawed the messy map of Iraq after the defeating of the Turks.
And is there any alternative for voters in the upcoming election in GB I doubt. So Labour is the smaller
thread, I guess.




> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Wednesday April 20 - 15:02 - Posted by d42fec9dbadfce25...

Wow, look at all those people enjoying their newly restored freedoms of speech and assembly. What a nightmare, huh?




> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday April 21 - 11:20 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

What use is the right to Freedom of Assembly if you’re an occupied nation ?? It doesn’t necessarily change the status quo. There might be the right to Freedom of assembly in the USA but it alters nothing. You try and change anything and you’ll have the police and military down on you like a ton of hot shit. Vote for change... ? HA HA yeah, right.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday April 21 - 15:22 - Posted by d42fec9dbadfce25...

Freedom of assembly has no value? Then why are people who want it willing to do this?

http://www.time.com/time/time100/le...

All of the self-dramatization over the course of your entire life will never measure up.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday April 21 - 15:56 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

The Chinese protests were for government reform.

If there were protests in Washington for ’government reform’ or for a LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT to be INSTALLED -boy you’d get the same response . I mean if they shoot Vietnam protestors on campuses I don’t think they’d think twice about shooting your sorry ass if you and a few thousand demonstrated about getting the bogus president out.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday April 21 - 21:10 - Posted by d42fec9dbadfce25...

Uh, did you just miss the entire US presidential election campaign? Millions demonstrated at rallies—thousands at a time—to get Dubya out. Millions. No tanks, no shots of any kind fired. (Actually, not quite true: Republican campaign offices in West Virginia and Florida had shots fired through their windows.)

So in your world, four Vietnam-war protestors killed (over the course of hundreds, if not thousands, of protests) = hundreds (maybe thousands) run over by tanks in T square, with many of the survivors being executed later on TV? (The ChiComs WANTED the world to see what happens to those who challenge them.) The leaders of the student movement were made to kneel in a little chalk circle on the prison grounds. They were shot in the head and then bayoneted. I’ve seen the tape they ran on Chinese state-run TV. Their families were then billed 13 cents for the bullet. Your efforts to cheapen their lives—and their deaths—is disgusting.

The guy in front of the tank represents the universal human desire for freedom of assembly. He was trying to keep people alive who peaceably assembled in the town square. You want to casually dismiss that.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 09:27 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

The Chinese deaths are regrettable, of course they are. Human rights abuses in the US are not far behind China in terms of executions and incarceration. Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram Airbase etc etc Check out Amnesty International.

The fact that TIME magazine -yes the one that donated $millions to Bushs campaign decides to highlight abuse of human rights in a TRADING RIVAL is interesting. TIME seem to ignore human rights abuses in the US, and what they do to other people in other peoples countries.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 12:16 - Posted by 0f0737a5ef229a77...

REGRETTABLE?? REGRETTABLE???!!!!
Once again the excrable blood stained equivocation and dishonesty of the left are made manifest. Marxism and Wahhabism are natural allies just as Stalin and Hitler were natural allies.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 12:28 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

I would admire you for coming to this site if you had an open mind and genuinely wanted to learn. But you have an agenda that is arrogant and historically lacking, with clearly no background knowledge, just prejudice and bias.
We’re not all ’left’ as you believe everyone on this site to be, just objective.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 20:27 - Posted by d42fec9dbadfce25...

To the previous poster, this is confusing. I’m the guy who talked about the tank. You responded. Some other guy came in and typed in all-caps like he’s hollering, and I think you think he’s me. *sigh* I used to use a handle so people’d know which one’s me, but when I did, the Webmaster tended to delete my posts, so now we’ve got the sheep mixing with the goats. Generally, if somebody’s shrill, that ain’t me. (Though I admit that those who proudly boast of their support for the jihadists or slander America based upon no facts whatsoever sometimes get my dander up.)



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday April 30 - 21:49 - Posted by dc0c6076d35a2ec7...

poor widdle guy. did you-ums get your widdle feelings all hurted???
Guys like you are almost as much of a problem as the lefty garbage that inhabits this site.
A modest intellect, a "need" to have your opinions heard, a desire to be inoffensive to the demented pinko turds and absolutely no balls. What a pity. What a waste.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday April 26 - 03:12 - Posted by 0f0737a5ef229a77...

I am quite likely the only poster here who has read the Qur’an, the Sirat Rasul Allah, has studied the Sahih Al Bukhari. I have no "prejudice" or "Bias", just an educated and finely honed understanding of the aims and strategy of Islam. I also understand that the left has grafted itself onto Militant Islam because they both hate the same thing: Christianity and western civilization. It is quite humorous watching people berserk with hatred slandering the Pope, who are absolutely silent where the Mullahs are concerned. [selective atheism?]



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday April 30 - 21:37 - Posted by dc0c6076d35a2ec7...

the meaning of "an open mind" to you is; "open to the bullshit, deception, self deception and manipulation of the left and leftists. You lefties are like the "Borg": "We will assimilate you"........In a pigs eye.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 1 - 08:50 - Posted by 24193229c1895515...

Gramps Stalin and Hitler are both dead (thank God your turn is coming soon) in the mean time try to stay up with the times. Bush makes both Hitler and Stalin look like amatures even if you haven’t noticed much of anything since the 40’s. If your pathetic Most Fucked Up Generation didn’t all have oldtimers disease maybe we could get through to you old fucks. Isn’t there a nice super senior site you could go do your verbal puke? Cause we are real tired of your farting in our faces with your love for Bushco.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday May 3 - 01:17 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

BE PATIENT BOY, THE "FARTING" IS JUST A TEST RUN. REAL SOON I’M GONNA BE SHITTING ALL OVER YOU.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday May 3 - 06:25 - Posted by 79fbd4f3db26c12c...

That is for certain, you old diarrheia brain you. You couldn’t do otherwise you old sack. God I bet you stink.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday May 5 - 01:13 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

Boy, it’s becoming more and more obvious that the best part of you dribbled down your mama’s
chin. I’m beginning to see how the lefties could think of abortion as a blessing. Too bad they missed you.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 1 - 08:57 - Posted by 24193229c1895515...

Don’t believe all of the propaganda put out by the propaganda ministry. Time magazine gave millions to get Bush elected and re-elected, they are hardly objective having so much money invested in Bush and his fanatical right wing agenda how could they do anything except paint smily faces all over his failed policies and his corrupt administration and his immoral war that has murdered 100,000 Iraqs. Everyone is busy talking about the mass graves from Saddam’s days, nobody is saying that Bush’s mass murders in Iraq dwarf the numbers killed by Saddam.....wonder why? Time ragazine won’t give these innocent victims a mere mention since it might shed some truth on something for a change.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 12:06 - Posted by 0f0737a5ef229a77...

OCCUPATION BY THE WEST IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO ANY ISLAMIC NATION.
What we have here is over a billion people suffering from religious "Stockholm syndrome".



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday April 22 - 14:04 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

Not much ’Stockholm syndrome’ in Iraq -nearly all the population want the US murderers to fuck off back to the US.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday April 26 - 03:18 - Posted by 0f0737a5ef229a77...

The "Stockholm" Syndrome referred to, my friend, is the effect Islam and the Qur’an has upon what would otherwise be, reasonably normal human minds.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday April 26 - 11:59 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

Sorry, my friend, misunderstood your use of ’Stockholm syndrome’. -Can’t see the logic behind Islam or any religion come to that, but respect peoples need and desire for a spiritual crutch, and would not condemn people for that.

There is ’Stockholm syndrome’ in every society. In the old Soviet Union or China the citizens were told they lived under egalitarian, sharing communism. Due to greed by the politburo and leaders, and the inabilty to trade with the rest of the world due to sanctions, what they actually lived under was State Capitalism. As such TRUE communism has never been tried and tested, and to try sucessfully would have to be a global phenomenum. Now it is totally discredited due to a really good Western marketing campaign.

In the West we are told of our unfettered freedom, yet underlying this is a society based solely on the search for ’profit’. This goal hinders the development of humankind as a species. If we take scientific Research and Development, which has been largely outsourced by governments to private companies, for example, if a product is not profitable it will be dropped,regardless of how beneficial it may be. For the growth of humans as a species there has to be more emphasis on a society that places need above profit.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday April 30 - 21:40 - Posted by dc0c6076d35a2ec7...

Much like anti-matter, or a perfect vacuum, "true communism" is an impossibility due to the intractable realities of human nature.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 1 - 09:25 - Posted by 24193229c1895515...

The real shame of Capitalism is that it teaches "anything for a buck" so there goes any morals out the window. And education starting from the time one enters the government run schools drums into our heads that people do not matter. things like wanting something from our societie’s group contributions is wrong. We are taught that you are not important, you don’t deserve anything for your tax money except lies, all that is important is money for the corporations. Your taught that it is right that your government should soak up all public monies for the good of big businesses and the military. People deserve nothing, and we as a society resent even the weakest and most defenseless citizens for needing help from the community resources. Healthcare is for the lucky who were born rich or have made enough money, the rest of you can fend for yourselves and do without. Even though you paid into social security all of your working life the capitalists steal the money to use for all things war, and then tell you the system is broke too bad for you suckers.

The tax codes are set up so that if your machinery breaks down and you pay to have it fixed, every cent of the money can be deducted from your taxes, but if your body breaks down and you have to have it fixed, nothing is deductable until you reach $8,000.00 in repairs, and then only the amount above that is tax deductable, what does that say? It says that machines are more important than people. Most people here make less than $30,000 per year....$8,000.00 is a lot of money for most of us to have extra.

Capitalism interchanges itself with religion whenever it needs to brainwash the citizens. And Capitalism has killed millions and millions, and millions, and millions of innocent people since the beginning of recorded history, far more than all other forms of government ever known, more genocides, more mass murders, too many to count and still going on at this moment with no end in sight. Salvery, waring, aggression, oppression, degradation, exploitation...everything that Jesus would abhor.

Our Capitalist government is presently planning the next mass murders and invasions of other countries at this moment. They are preparing new and more terrible weapons everyday for the wars they will commit in the future against as yet unnamed peoples of the earth. Weapons in space that they have given demonic names to like "rods from God" and then they calim to love and respect God yet they use God for their own evil purposes.

Capitalism is a shameful form of government and nothing can erase what it has done in the name of pure pursuit of money and what it will do in the future for the unstoppable greed that defines it. All the while using religion to justify this to the not too bright believers.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday May 3 - 01:13 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

and what were Stalin, Lenin and Mao in pursuit of when they butchered over 100,000,000 people?



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Tuesday May 3 - 06:32 - Posted by 79fbd4f3db26c12c...

Out in the school yard with the kids in compared to the mass murders, genocides of native people and anyone who tries to compete with the money grubbers in the name of Capitalism, you need to educate yourself a little so that you will have history besides that of Hitler (a capitalist) Lennin and Stalin. These people were very minor players on the world history stage.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Wednesday May 4 - 04:30 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

That statement is so patently stupid, so outrageously deluded it really does not deserve a reply, but out of the greatness of my heart, I will try: FUCK YOU, YOU LYING DIRTBAG MORON.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday May 6 - 11:13 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

Wow, you’ve yet again raised the level of debate and this time you nearly got as far as the gutter.

Just a quick question so as not to tax you too much.

With reference to the islamaphobia expressed above..... How exactly would you react if you had the Iraqi army trampling all over your neighbourhood as they try to secure regime change and steal your assets. I may be wrong but I doubt you would be throwing flowers and chocolates at them.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday May 6 - 12:21 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

You really refuse to get the point. Most likely because if you did it would destroy the philosophical foundation of your life..............One more time............There is no Iraqi army per se, there is only world Islam. Study world Islam from it’s inception in the 7th century and you will find that it has been one long tale of rape, pillage, conquest, mass murder, enslavement and horror. Once again the left gives us opinions without knowledge.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday May 6 - 15:17 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

The Iraqi regime and army under Saddam was a Ba’athist regime. He embraced Islam in much the same way as Bush embraces christianity- ie just to garnish support.

Therefore, in your wisdom, you owe it to the previous poster to respond to his question -If Iraqi troops were running amok in the US, kicking down doors, humiliating US housewives, torturing and shooting with impunity at road blocks -would you and your family welcome them and shower them with chocolates and flowers ??????



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Friday May 6 - 17:55 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

Thanks for the support. But don’t hold your breath for a sensible answer. He just tends to rant on about things he doesn’t understand.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday May 7 - 00:41 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

saddam is in a cage where he belongs. the majority of the islamic fighters are shia and sunni fanatics augmented by chechens, al queda, fatah and hamas. islamic fighters have run amok all over the world, the recently deceased Mr. Van Gogh would testify to that had not his throat been slit. the children, mothers and teachers of Beslan would also testify....... were they still alive. you are entirely animated by hatred, so no argument would be good enough. the truth of my statements will prove themself out after the muslims acquire a nuclear device. If they cannot spirit it into the U.S., i’m sure they would happily make due with London or Rome. When London, Rome, Copenhagen or Paris disappears in a ball of nuclear fire even then you will not be convinced; you will probably just turn dialectical backflips trying to blame America. You and your comrades run by the old Leninist/Stalinist axiom that any attack upon America is justified because America is evil, and, any attempt by America to defend itself is not justified because America is evil and must be destroyed. I am aware that it is entirely impossible to convince you. If Marx himself came back from the dead, even that would not do it. This entire exercise is, for me, a combination of keyboard practice and minor amusement.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday May 7 - 12:18 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

Would you please indicate where the proof lies that I am "entirely animated by hatred". I cannot find the hate in my words - a little sarcasm and fun perhaps - but hate? No. It isn’t me who resorts to full on abuse. I live in a community where muslim faces are not exceptional and yet they aren’t all trying to cut my throat at every available opportunity. In fact, I would have to say that my experiences are precisely the reverse. They could certainly teach westerners a thing or two about kindness, honesty and respect. With all this talk of nuclear weapons etc you seem to exist in some state of perpetual fear of these strange brown men with their strange religion and strange ways, perhaps ignoring the fact that for 99.9% of any population has aspirations you would recognise in yourself just as I would recognise them in myself. Fundamentally (interesting choice of word!) we all share certain things on this little rock. We are all following that old yellow star up there, we’re all born, we all go to the toilet and we all die. Our similarities far outweigh our differences. Within any section of any society there will always be those who aspire to power. They exist everywhere. It just seems that you can recognise the evil in everyone else and every other society and yet refuse to accept it within your own. A life that is unexamined is a life that isn’t lived. We all need to reflect on our own roles within the world, we all need to take care before accepting ideas that will inform our lives and we all need to see the struggles and problems of others through a less dirty lens. I would no more praise or damn radical Islam than I would praise or damn radical US imperialism. In both cases it does not reflect the people. Instead it reflects peoples relationship with the world around them and speaks to the lust for greed and power present where ever you look. Cause and effect is the usual pattern of things in this world and it is worth remembering that nothing occurs in a vacuum. Beslan for example does not occur without the total destruction of Grozny. That is not to diminish the horrors of that event but it is to find some understanding of the motivation of all of the people involved. I condemn what happened in Beslan - and indeed what happens in Iraq every day - but I also condemn the power and greed mongers who light the powder under these people in the first place. In most places that would be considered a balanced outlook. Have you ever considered what drives a man or woman to strap explosives to themselves. It must be an act of desperation, just as fear drives some of the more excessive elements of US forces to commit their own atrocities. It is also possible that people have a right to feel troubled by the US striding around the world like some out of control collossus. Just because you are powerful does not make you right. The last ten or so years have seen a terrible fall in US standing in the world and that is to be regretted but you must look for a solution within your own country as well as looking outside for people to blame.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday May 7 - 14:48 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

leftists seem to dwell in an historical vacuum. a muslims’ every moment of daily behaviour is dictated by the Qur’an, the Sirat Rasul Allah, the Sahih al Bukhari and the Sira of Muslim. They are instructed to be kind and compassionate in this type of setting, in the same way they are ordered to murder, rape and enslave when they have gained a certain level of numerical ascendance. Islam means "submission".
Your hate is made manifest by your stubborn refusal to research the things you pontificate on.
Such research would render your present weltanschauung [world vision] null and void, and you seem to be more or less aware of this fact.
Ergo, your willful maintainance of a state of provable ignorance is a manifestation of hatred.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Saturday May 7 - 21:50 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

So hatred is expressed through any opinion that happens to impinge upon your world view. Such arrogance does you no service whatsoever. If you really expect me to believe that the muslims who share my corner of the world are all pretending so as to lull all of us into a false sense of security then you need a serious reality check. As for research - you seem to have fallen into an awful trap. My research is wide ranging... (I don’t even dismiss you without a deal of fact checking) but you seem to be trapped in a narrow world view where your source of reference is pre-ordained by a right wing myopia. Can you not find a charitable bone in your body to consider that difference may be one of the strengths of humanity rather than something to fear. The Christian church says and has done (in my name as much as in yours) many things for which it should be ashamed but you do not seem to suggest that any hand that we hold out to muslims is only to fool them so that we can cut their throats later. You speak of research and pontification which I find particularly interesting since I have never met anyone who pontificates as much as you. I do not in any way desire to force an opinion upon you but only to attempt to force a chink of light into that closed mind of yours. I reserve the right to disagree with you as I see fit and as an advocate of freedom (albeit US style) you should afford me the same honour. If you wish to trade historical research - then try this. You have written (and if I am wrong about this I will apologise in advance) about how the US saved all of our scrawny asses in WWII. That is a fascinating claim more or less identical to one made by your president today. Consider this:
US casualties in WWII 0.3%
British casualties 0.6%
Soviet casualties 14%
The russians that you so despise sacrificed 27 million people in the fight against fascism and when the war ended the carving up of Europe was not some covert commie takeover it was a negotiated settlement between Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin which kinda means that we’re just as responsible as anyone else. I do not in any way hold that Stalin was anything other than an evil man but I think your dismissal of the whole of the old soviet union as some evil empire is the same as me condemning all US citizens because of Bush. I could not and would not do so (except in jest). Some of the best people I know are American. By the way, I used to have a boss whose last resort when losing was to assert his supposedly greater intellect by throwing in various foreign words with explanations for those he thought were inferior to himself. He was known by everyone who met him as an arsehole.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 8 - 09:08 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

The Soviets lost such an appalling number of men due to bad tactics, bad support systems, and the use of the German army as convenient executioners of unwanted elements of the Soviet population. [re: "Stalin" Radzhinsky, "Lenin" Volkogonov, "Khruschev remembers", "The Black Book of Communism", "The Living and The Dead" Nina Tumarkin, "Death by Government" Rummel, "The Gulag Archipelago" Solzhenitsyn, ...........I could go on,.......and on] As per your hostility concerning my use of "foreign" words, your ignorance has rendered you invicible, your hatred is intact; go ye forth and conquer.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 8 - 10:56 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

Have you ever heard or even considered the word humility? The russians made the greatest sacrifice of WWII end of story. Is their loss mitigated because of bad tactics? Strangely I have no hatred and that seems to really cause you a problem. I must also inform you that constant repetition of a statement does not actually make it true it merely reinforces the prejudice in your own mind. I apologise for the last comment of the previous post - it was not needed and did not exactly inform the debate. And I do believe you could go on, ........and on. Unfortunately its not the volume but the quality of the argument that needs work. You seem informed only by those arguments that suit your particular prejudices and point of view. There is a narrow focus to your arguments which betrays a level of certainty that is dangerous. I am sure that the insurgency in Iraq is equally certain of their position and yet their position, self evidently, isn’t yours. Therefore the only question really is : We both have truths, are mine the same as yours? You employ the skills of a politician in the selection of supporting facts and refusal to even consider those, however large or reasonable, that conflict with what you seem to consider your perfect narrative of life. I hope never to display such arrogance as to think that I am at the end of my journey of learning. Many greater men than either you or I have gone to their graves lacking the certainty that you display now. That must mean that you are the cleverest and most advanced human in history (possible, but unlikely) or that you need to open that mind up a bit more and accept that learning is a lifelong activity and does not end with the formation of prejudice. You seem very fearful of this world and many of the people in it and for that I am sorry. you really need to accept the axiom that the truth is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder and not a personalised tablet of stone that becomes your exclusive property.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 8 - 14:15 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

The great art of politics lies in creating an enemy and then aligning the disparate pieces of society against it........By constantly sending agent provocateurs into Germany, by assisting n the seizing of Bavaria in 1921 -22, by instigating revolution in all the eastern European states, by creating an aura of pervasive fear in Germany, Stalin created Hitler.......The "Russians" made no sacrifice; they were sacrificed on the altar of Stalin’s overweening ambition. They were sacrificed by Stalin, Khruschev, Zhukov, Kaganovich, Beria and his NKVD thugs. Your paradigm is entirely specious [respectfully] you must rethink. P.S. your apology is accepted.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Sunday May 8 - 15:38 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

To say the russians made no sacrifice raises ignorance to new levels. Stalingrad anyone? Or Kursk. Let’s not forget that these were the first defeats inflicted upon nazi Germany and were the beginning of the end for the third reich. "Stalin created Hitler" is so wonderfully bizarre a construct that I am forced to thank you for making me smile. The Versaille treaty created Hitler by carving up Germany and removing vital industry, coal fields etc making it inevitable that at some point this became a grievance that had to be addressed. You do have one very good point though - the art of politics does indeed lie in creating an enemy and for that you need look no further than the government of the US which is engaged in such a policy as we speak. Sadly you seem to have become something of a cheerleader for this situation with all your anti muslim nonsense.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Monday May 9 - 09:08 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

Thought you levelled a really coherent,and patient! argument -and after studying history for three years the sacrifice made by the people of the old Soviet Union was by far the greatest , and destroyed fascism almost single handedly. Conservative casualty figures suggest 27 million lost, but the true figure was nearer 40 million.
Western leaders were not too disimilar in there views concerning international jewry and the threat of communism, and even today the loss of 40 million Soviets is not given the respect that this massive sacrifice deserves.
It is very difficult for historians to say disengenuous things about the US involvement in WW2. The leaders also sacrificed their young men on an ideological altar. Most of the evidence points to US involvement when the financial returns were guaranteed, but then that is what drives capitalism -war and profit.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Monday May 9 - 18:26 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

Thank you for the support...... My patience is hopefully pretty limitless when the fight is right. I find any attempt to diminish the bravery and sheer bloody mindedness of the Russian people during WWII as an insult to a great people. Their leaders may have been lacking but the citizens certainly were not.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Wednesday May 11 - 04:37 - Posted by ad454e14d97305b7...

you guys seen Elvis lately?



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Wednesday May 11 - 12:23 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

No. He died on his toilet August 16 1977..... I think that may be a fact.
The argument seems to have quietened...... I wonder why?



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Wednesday May 11 - 12:46 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

I think we have to admit defeat and bow to his superior grasp of historical fact. I feel humbled and shamed by that cutting reference to Elvis ? I mean where do we go from here ?



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Wednesday May 11 - 20:48 - Posted by fa15e807419754e4...

Graceland, probably.



> Don’t be fooled by the spin on Iraq
Thursday May 12 - 13:15 - Posted by 1ebd73fbe1f545ca...

Obscure link but..apparently Al Zarqawi is known as the Iraqi Elvis;
http://fayrouz.blogspot.com/2005/03...






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