Home > Al Qaeda Beheads Paul Johnson, the U.S. Hostage in Saudi Arabia

Al Qaeda Beheads Paul Johnson, the U.S. Hostage in Saudi Arabia

by Open-Publishing - Friday 18 June 2004
81 comments

Edito


by Ghaida
Ghantous

Al Qaeda militants beheaded U.S. engineer Paul Johnson, who had been held hostage
since last week, after the Saudi government failed to meet a Friday deadline
for it to free jailed militants.

The group loyal to Saudi-born Osama bin Laden displayed his severed head in
pictures posted on its Islamist Web site Sawt al-Jihad. A Saudi Web site, al
Wifaq, said Marshall’s body was found in the Mowansiyah area, east of the capital
Riyadh.

The U.S. embassy condemned it as an "inhumane crime." The victim’s full name
was Paul Marshall Johnson.

"As we promised, the mujahideen, we have beheaded the American hostage Paul Marshall
after the deadline that the mujahideen gave to the tyrannical Saudi government
passed," the Falluja Brigade of the Organization of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula
said on their Web site, Sawt al-Jihad.

The Web site showed three pictures of what appeared to be Johnson’s severed head — one showed the bloodied head propped up on the back of a body in an orange jumpsuit with a knife leaning on the face.

A second picture showed a hand lifting up the head and a third showed the body and the head from a different angle.

Saudi forces killed three wanted militant suspects in Riyadh, Al-Arabiya television said later.

Militant attacks have rocked the world’s biggest oil exporter for more than a year but Johnson’s kidnapping was the first of its kind in Saudi Arabia and raised concerns over a new tactic by militants. Two Americans and an Irish television cameraman have been shot dead in Riyadh this month.

Speaking before the final confirmation, Secretary of State Colin Powell said: "We of course totally condemn this act of barbarism, this action that shows, once again, what the world is dealing with, with these kind of individuals who behead somebody in cold blood, an innocent individual."

"He was just trying to help people and trying to do his job," he added.

Johnson, 49, worked for defense contractor Lockheed Martin on the manufacture of Apache helicopter gunships.

The statement said al Qaeda had killed him because of "what Muslims have suffered from American Apache planes and their rockets." Falluja, whose name appears in the signature of the group, is a Sunni Muslim city in Iraq where U.S. troops fought insurgents in April and May.

"This act is to heal the hearts of believers in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and the Arabian Peninsula," the group said.

"This is so that he can taste what Muslims have suffered from Apache planes and their rockets. The slain American parasite was working on their maintenance and developing their systems in Saudi Arabia," the statement said.

"We, by the will of God, will continue to fight the enemies of God...This act is revenge against them and will be a lesson so that they can be sure of the fate of those who come to our country."

NEW TACTIC?

Johnson’s kidnapping was the first of its kind in Saudi Arabia and raised concerns over a new tactic by militants.

The statement warned other Americans would meet a similar fate if they went to Saudi Arabia.

The beheading, which followed a spate of bombings and attacks on oil companies and Westerners over the past six weeks, escalated al Qaeda’s war to oust the kingdom’s pro-U.S. monarchy and drive out Westerners from the world’s key oil power.

Militants have stalked and shot dead two American military contractors outside their homes in Riyadh this month, marking a departure from more opportunistic attacks in the kingdom. They also shot dead a BBC cameraman and seriously wounded a reporter.

The attacks followed last month’s violence when militants killed 22 foreigners at oil offices and Western compounds in the eastern oil city of Khobar.

"This is God’s voice rising in anger...at the treatment of Muslims in Abu Ghraib, al-Hair, Guantanamo, Ruwais and others," the statement added, referring to U.S. military prisons in Iraq and Cuba and two Saudi prisons

The State Department warned U.S. citizens in Saudi Arabia Thursday of serious threats to their safety and repeated advice strongly urging them to leave the kingdom.

Saudi-born Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda, blamed for the September 11, 2001, attacks on U.S. cities, has vowed 2004 would be "bloody and miserable" for the kingdom, a key U.S. ally.

Johnson’s beheading was the third carried out by al Qaeda since 2002. In May, U.S. contractor Nicholas Berg was kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq. The CIA said suspected al Qaeda operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was probably the one who decapitated Berg.

In 2002, al Qaeda-linked Pakistani militants murdered and beheaded American Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.

18.06.2004
Bellaciao Collective

Forum posts

  • With the exception of Israel, Jordan and Egypt, it is time to turn the middle east into one big concrete parking lot. These people have NO repect or value for human life—none of them are willing to take responsibility for getting rid of the terrorists or murderers. It is time to put them all away!

    • As the bible states in the last days there will be a increase in violence, and a supernatural battle is happening between good and evil but in the end when The Lord returns- justice will prevail, and those that breaks God’s law will face judgement and will have a eternity of burning in hell for their unrepenting sins. (they will get their just punishment for this!!)

    • You’re saying that we should ’put them all away’? What kind of respect for human life do you have my friend? Only the people responsible for these actions should be prosecuted, not the whole Middle East.
      If you want to track down and prosecute the culprits of this outrage then ok. Give them their day in court. If they’re men enough to take responsibility for their actions, let them turn themselves in. Maybe then they can do something about prisoner conditions at detention centers PERSONALLY!

    • Have patience......God shall deal with all bad things and those who create wrongs .

    • There is a huge difference between posing with men stripped naked and asking them to perform embarrsing acts, as opposed to beheading someone in cold blooded murder. Countries that claim to be friends of the United States a.k.a Saudi Arabia, Jordon and others are urinating on our heads and telling us its raining.

      If you are not intelligent enough to see the difference, you are part of the problem. It seems to me that Arab countries are just bitter that the world has passed them by in technology, intelligence, wealth and everything else.

      The problem fighting terroism is that the bad people do not wear uniforms that identify themselves. So to just say; why don’t we just find the bad individuals an prosecute them is much easier said then done. Sometimes to make an omlette, you have to break a couple of eggs.

      But maybe you are not intelligent enough to know what that means.

    • You cannot fight these types of criminals with the laws of man. It is about time that we American’s wake up and realize that there are no morals in war. Throughtout middle east history, as depicted in the bible, innocent men, women, and children were killed when they passively sat by and allowed ungodly acts to occur. People in the middle east need to rise up and take back there own reputation. It is not our sole responsibility to fight this battle for them.

      Those American’s that oppose this action against terrorism, and other senseless violence, will be the first one’s complaining when terroristic violence comes to their front doors. 9/11 is only a mere tip of the iceberg if we do not show a "UNITED" front. We will never all agree, but we can come together for the greater good of all people.

      Our media propogates a "DIVIDED" country and no kingdom divided can stand. They show the world our weakness, individualism. We must stop wimpering and whining when an innocent person dies in the time of violent conflict (with all due respect to those that have persished in this conflict). None of us want anyone to die, but we also do not want another 9/11 type attack.

      As Jack Nicolson says in the movie a Few Good Men, "You can’t handle the truth". Guarding Freedom is not a passive act. All throughout humanity, the sword is used to obtain freedom. We must be willing to "pay the price" for freedom, because regarless of what "anti-war" fanatics say, freedom is not free. There are enemies of freedom that do not fight by the rules.

      I thank God that there are men and women in the Armed Forces willing to fight for our freedom. We should respect them by setting down our pety differences and back them 100% regardless of our politics. The mere fact that we can speak our minds, should cause us to rally behind our President, whether it is Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, G.W. Bush, or anyone else in the office.

      God Bless America!

    • With the exception of mexico, cuba, coloumbia brazil, argentina, chille, peru and canada it is time to turn america into one big concrete parking lot. These people have NO repect or value for human life—none of them are willing to take responsibility for getting rid of the terrorists or murderers. It is time to put them all away!

    • What you are saying is typical ignorance. True, the Middle East does have a substantial history of violence against innocent individuals and groups, but what you are saying is completely irrational. "it is time to turn the middle east into one big concrete parking lot."...So when the KKK down in KY or TN commit violent acts against African Americans, are you suggesting that America should construct a mall where the state once stood?

    • People of the US seem to forget How evil our government is we’ve taken 100s of thousands all in the name of freedom, thats an excuse to kill at will I didnt hear shi! about alquada when Clinton was in Now we here how terrorist want to hurt us all the time may be because we want leave them the hell alone and let the run there own land. Instead, we think we know whats best for them. But even that is not the case beleive or not this is all becasue Saddam would not let up off the oil he said the hell with US and Bush 1 couldnt do anything about it but Bush 2 said i Can and he did now look at the mess we’re in dont get mad at me its the dont get caught in replucian and all the look at the US damn even milk has gone up.

    • We as Americans are fighting a losing battle if we don’t fight the war on their terms. We’re trying to win a fencing match and they’re fighting back with chains and baseball bats. We need to ’sink’ to this barbaric level to be effective and no longer be the laughing stock.

      I’ve said it since before Sept. 11: Any terror strike against Americans should result in one million lives for each American life lost. As Truman did with the atom bomb, this theory would only need proving once or twice. If we were to kill 20 or 30 million people—Saudis, Iraquis, etc.. and say we MEAN ONE MILLION—men, women, children, young, old and so on for every US life lost—this might clear things up for them. These extremists have no regard for their own life—in fact martyrdom is an honor—so they need to see their parents, neighbors wives and children charred with nuclear dust to understand how firmly we stand.
      No diplomacy will ever make them like us; they HATE us to the death. Until such drastic actions occur, our childrens blood will be spilled across the desert.
      So if it comes to them or us, US must win!!

    • When the rains came, a rescuer came to his door and told the man to get to higher ground. The man replied "No thanks, the Lord will provide." As the water rose ten-foot, the man moved to the second floor of his home. A boat came for him telling him to evacuate. The man replied "No thanks, the Lord will provide." When the water continued to rise the man climbed to the roof of his house. A helo came to rescue him and he shouted up to it, "No thanks, the Lord will provide."
      The man drown. When he stood at the gates of Heaven he complained "Lord why did you forsake me?!" The Lord replied "Forsake you! I sent a rescuer, a boat and a helo. What more can I do?"
      The point?
      America has so much, they seem to be truly blessed. They are a free people who spend BILLIONs of dollars on others - out of care and love. They have bled the soil red in defense of much of the world including the traitorous French. How many of us would send our young people to die in defense of others? People and whole nations plead for the US Marine Corps when things get ugly and brutal. Could it be that the US is the rescuer, the boat and the helo - but our pride and hate keeps us from just saying "Thank You" and trying to help?

    • You are a complete idiot.

    • Indeed inhumane. But so is The British and American occupying armies. Their indiscriminate slaughtering of Iraqis, on Iraqi soil is the pinnacle of Barbarism.

      They should withdraw and apologize to the world through the U.N. for their illegal occupation of a sovereign country. Then immediately establish a compensation and rebuilding fund to take care of the widows and orphans of Iraq, and to rebuild what they have so criminally destroyed. This would be the most effective way to deal with worldwide terrorism and murder.

      Jonathan Minz. Canada

    • We are truly living in the "end times"......

    • Sounds about right......Send them to Liberia, we dont want them...

    • Have you tried Prozac?? Embalming Fluid perhaps?

    • You obviously don’t know America’s own bloody behavior against the indigenous people which inhabited this continent first. America hung, sliced, tortured, skinned, etc. these people unless they either moved out or converted to Christianity. Oh, and America continues to do that to their own as well as prisoners of war...

    • Mr. Minz — I dare to say there have been more Canadians killed trying to hump a moose than there have been "indescriminately" killed Iraqis. Clearly you demonstrate the effectiveness of a biased media’s propaganda campaign. The restraint, care and precision these young men and women demonstrate in situations that would lead people like you to fertilize your carpet isremarkable.

      Funny you don’t mention that Iraqis already have better health care, better education, more electricity, cleaner water, working sewage, greater employment, 7 times higher wages and more in just the little time the "inhumane" Brits and Americans have been "occupying" Iraq.

      Idiot.

    • As did the French, the Spanish, the English, the Celts and the Vikings. All your ancestors, too, most likely. Brilliant argument... go back 200 years in history to run down a modern civilization.

    • Unemployment have skyrocketed in Iraq after the invasion (60%). Electricity is down to six hours a day. Health care is totally insufficient, given that Bremer have decided that Healthcare is best left to Iraqis, who were devastated by 10 years of sanctions and given that most sick people are treated in American field Hospitals because of the lack of medication and other facilities after the invasion.

      There was no restraint demonstrated in Abu Ghraieb prison. Neither was there any restraint in laying siege to Fallujah or in Bombing a wedding party. I think you don’t have your facts straight.

      Funny how fast we forget that there is an illegal occupation.

    • I agree the whole Middle East shouldn’t have to pay for the behavior of the terrorists. But...I really don’t think that any of these barbarions would be "man enough" to take any responsiblity for their actions. Unfortunately they truly believe in their cause (what ever the heck that is). I say in these instances there should be an "eye for an eye"...that is the only responsible thing to do at this point. We have to do something that would begin to detour these monsters.

    • I couldn’t have expressed these same views any better than this! We need more people like this to stand up...get the "anti-war fenatics" to zip their lips...they don’t have a clue!

      God Bless America and President Bush!

    • You cant beleive the bible and what about all the previous wars? Were they not a battle of good and evil? The war doesnt scare me, it sickens me. The 2 soliders who were beheaded deserved it

      Fuck the flag and you Bush

    • You are so fucking ignorant. Reread your Bible.

    • right on man.
      viva la iraqis!

    • This is absurd over-reaction.

      The killing of Paul Johnson is barbaric - everyone has said so.

      But what about all the innocent iraqis who have been killed by American firepower - shouldn’t the UAS take responsibility there?

    • You are talking about handeling the truth when you do not know the truth. The truth about 9/11 is that the American government was behind it. They trained Al Queda and Bin Ladin, and they knew it was going to happen because they ordered it to happen. Research your shit. http://infowars.com

    • And the bible is a great work of fiction. Christianity is a made up religion that was stolen and copied from other religions(paganism for example). The Christians stole everything, even the days of the week. They changed Thor’s Day to Thursday, Frey’s Day to Friday, Tiu’s Day to Tuesday, etc. Again, research your shit.

    • Neither of the two men were soldiers. Nor was the first, a journalist, in 2002. Obviously you know nothing of these people so how can you justify your comments that they deserved it? You sicken me.

    • You, sir, are an idiot!

    • Note: The KKK is most active and powerful in that bastion of civil rights Illinois! Dumbass!

    • Or English lessons?

    • The 2 men beheaded were not military targets. If civilians that dont fight back deserve to die, you may be next. They are cowards that get their jollies by killing helpless people and displaying the dead bodies. They only kill those who cant fight back. These actions will only feed the worlds anger against terrorism. They are not strong enough to fight a real war, the only way they can fight is with these little cowardly attacks, then run and hide leaving their families to pay for the trouble they stirred up. They believe in their cause, but they will be found and brought to justice. Because their own families will get tired of paying the price for their acts of cowardice and lead us to them.

    • Notice who these horrible people have kidnapped now. Yup, three MUSLIMS! 1 from Pakistan, 2 from Turkey and one American soldier who is from Lebanon. They are simply trying to disrupt any sense of peace in the region and the world. Alsalama alekum! You’re going to need it!

  • just nuke them all, apparently they have not value of life, and the governments over there do not care if we are there to help them or not. just nuke them

    • how about we nuke the US instead? That way the real culprits of the hell on earth get what they deserve, and hopefully that should solve that problem. why don’t you learn to use your brain and really see who the problem is?

    • US is not the problem, It is just a blessed nation by GOD who created Earth and us. Terrorists are sons of satan and their envy towards americans are their own fault,because they have false god. When the time comes, all of them are going to the bottom less pit in hell FOREVER. GOD is our only savior

    • The real culprits ??? To nuke the United States??? are you using your brain? Sure there’s enough responsibility go around. These actions are those of " TERROR-IST" There mission is to strike terror in people. If you believe the United States and it’s people are terrorists, you are sadly mistaken. I am proud to be an american!!! You should be ashamed of yourself placing blame and judgement on this country. This country is not the culprits!! It’s people like you and the way you have responded to a message that leads to Evil.

    • Spoken like a true democrat

    • Just nuke them all....typical white trash America. How can you accuse them of having no value of life, while you can sit in front of your computer and just flat out say "Just Nuke ’Em"...What about the innocent civilians, the men, women, and children. What about the retaliation? It’s people like you who make me happy that we have at least a bit of common sense sitting in office right now...

    • Im aN independant "SO CALLED" whAT THE HELL IS A DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICIAN ANY WAY ITS ALL THE SAME I ONCE ASKED A DIE HARD REP. WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO EVERYTHING HE SAID ABOUT A DEM. WAS NEGATIVE AND THATS BULL SHYT tHIS IS WHAT i HAVE TO SAY TO YOUR DUMB ASS COMMENT YOU REPPYS ARE THE MOST BLINDED PARTY iVE EVER SEEN YOU DO NOT TAKE REPONSIBILTY FOR YOUR WRONG ACTIONS EVERYWRONG ACTION IS DONE IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM

    • You sound just like Al Queda. Religion is the problem, not the solution.

    • The word innocent is flawed here. There is no innocent in a culture that cultivates and rewards hatred based solely upon race or nationality. Freedom is what we, as Americans, strive for. Freedom to choose and CHANGE government, to express religious and moral beliefs. We have no desire to colonize or govern these foreign lands; we seek to solely give them an avenue to be free to speak and question their own leaders. For this they hate us and randomly kill us. PLEASE, of all the things that these people are, innocent they are not.

  • ways of GOD are mysterious, we already know how depraved & little our puny minds are & what man really is; I hope the glory of God isn’t reflected by these subhumans, if we all just minded our OWN business. hmmmm...

  • Out of all bad , good shall survive .

  • To bad this dumb President we have is all talk and $$$$$$ with little or no action...NUKE them NUKE IRAQ...Let them have it all .......no harm done...they can go to heaven with their virgins and stay there...........

    There is no reason with them so why try why care.....make them banish.........the world will be a better kinder place ith all of them GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • It is time for the US to pull all economic resources from around the world. No more big brother just take care of ourselves. Pull all our military bases and bring all the troops home. Don’t leave our equipment behind but destroy the buildings and runways etc.. Start digging for coal again and drill in the Gulf of Mexico and the Arctic. Demand via laws that the auto companies no longer produce 8 cylinder vehicles and all vehicles get at least 30mpg. That technology already exists but the deep pockets shared between the oil companies, Detroit and Washington don’t want to acknowledge it does.

      On the other hand just imagine how wide the Suez canal would be if we lobbed a few nukes into that area. Look at how well Khadafi responded when the USS New Jersey landed a few VW sized bombs in his bed from 200 miles off shore. The Saudi’s Royal Familyare the most crooked crew ever. The world would be better without them.

    • It is so apparent to me that humankind is taking a turn for the worse. What ever happened
      to peace on earth. Not for us in this life im afraid. It seems that anyone over in any one
      of those countries should get out. Our nation is suffering enough right here at home.
      The president’s views are not what we want. I am going to Canada and am going to stay there..

    • Unfortunately, we cannot just pull back from around the world. We live with a global economy. In case you have not noticed, over the past 25 years we have allowed our manufacturing base to disappear into other countries, we no longer have the capability of producing steel in the US; our clothing industry has all gone to other countries. I agree that we should be much more careful about where we spend our tax $$ and there are places where we provide aid and resources that we could easily forget, but we are far beyond the days when the US could be totally self-sufficient.

    • I believe it is time for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. Then we make two lists. List A contains all the countries that have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short - United Kingdom, Bulgaria, Australia and Poland, to name a few. List B contains everyone not on List A. Foreign aid and diplomatic relations to those countries on List B should cease immediately and indefinately! The money that is saved during the first year alone will pay for the costs of the Iraqi war. It is time for America to start focusing on its own welfare and its own citizens. After a century of trying to help give people a decent life in this world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. A simple note to terrorist organizations, screw with us and you will be hunted down and eliminated! Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, Germany, China, or Russia. To those countries on List A, thank you from the bottom of our hearts. To the nations on List B, better learn to fight for yourself because the sand is in your backyard!

    • Please GO! take others like yourself with you. It would be nice to have ALL the cowards in one country. Canada WAS a decent country until they became soft and their yellow starts to show. And as another thought, how soon the french forget what country gave their sons to liberate them. The only real fighting the french men did was to Kill or humiliate their women who consorted with germans (probably the only viable culture to breed into their gene pool ), as Americans, we try to help, sometimes our government makes mistakes, but we hold our leaders accountable. We ARE A FREE PEOPLE , because of our laws & culture. Don’t ever forget this, nor make the mistake of thinking we won’t stick together in a fight. W. Shilling

  • May all those who celebrate in the beheading of innocent individuals burn in hell!

  • So many so easily manipulated so stupid...
    1. the video of this latest conveniently timed beheading comes out of california
    http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1544211,00.html

    2. beheading is no more horrible than all the black men lynched in the usa and the red men who died from small pox infected blankets, or Japanese fried at Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or vietnamese napalmed by usa, El Salvadoreans and Nicuaraguans tortured by cia, the electric chair or a needle or rumsfields ok of the disappearing and killing of an Iraqi man hidden at Abu-G. There is no moral standing for the citizen slaves of the usa who condone imperialist terror, troture and slaughters for profit and power.

    3. For all you USA government/corporate lovers who will bend over for massah sam, what will you do when the usa robomercenraies come into your neghborhood, set up checkpoints, steal your land and oil and water, rape you, your wives, daughters sons, and take anything else they can get their greedy profit is everything hands on in the name of manifest destiny, my god is better than your godism? Rules of war—collaborators and enemies pay the price for being where they are not supposed to be.

    all empires fall, worry isn’t preparation preparation is preparation.

    • What a show!

      If you are so proud of yourself why do you hide behind masks? Are you not man enough to stand up for what you believe in ...If you do not show your face, then you are ashamed and realize what you have done is not right.

      Thats alright, because there is ONE GOD and he sees thru clothes.

    • your a moron... USA has help so many people through out the world! we give more money to africa for A.I.D.S. research than any other nation in the world. when anyone ever needss help they call on the USA! I believe every nation or people who resort to terrorism to help spread their beliefs are bafoons. to think that cutting off some poor mans head will stop the USA in this just cause is ludicrious! we will not tire and we will not stop until the job is done!!! this isnt about oil because the saudis would give us as much as we want! it is about what is right! USA vs. evil! WE WILL PREVAIL!!!!! may your prayers be to the johnson family! mine will be! to all the americans in the middle east please get out and let the military handle their business! it is only going to get worse for innocent civilians over there!

    • America is an Imperialist country as somebody above said. We are at the top of the world, and although all empires fall eventually, they do everything to keep from falling.

      Thus, we should crush all that oppose us, it is the only way for us to survive. So, whoever was talking about slaves, no worse than the red man with small pox, blah blah blah so on and so forth. You may be right, there is an equivalence between that type of behavior and beheading. But, you know what whoever is the meanest, smartest, and toughest shall rule. So screw you, you deserve to be crushed and if you have sympathy for Arabs and terrorists, you are a traitor to the USA. IF you are not from the USA, you are an envious weakling who wishes they were.

    • So where is the video? I keep hearing about the video and the three (3) pictures, however I have seen nothing.

  • It is true that the US aids many countries be it financial or military. What we seem to forget is the reason we originally went to Iraq; we went to oust Hussein. We have done a very good and thorough job of that. Now it is time for us to leave. Instead of trying to give the Iraqis a better life, in OUR view, we should just leave them to run their country the way they believe is best. We cannot and should not force our ideals down anyone’s throat, for that is what the terrorists are also trying to do. Give them back Saddam and leave as quickly as we went in. This way we will have done our job, we can leave them in the sesspool that is their country and they can run it. It should not be considered running away if we accomplished what we initially set out to do. Go Bush!

    • It seems that very few here understand the nature of the situation. If the US were to vacate Iraq now, we would end up with the same or an even worse situation. These people (arabs) are incapable as a group of free self governance. They are like teenagers who push against those who are most interested in their best interest and then like teenagers end up falling prey to gang leaders or religious extremeists. The Arabs have not ever had a free form of government. First it was the Caliphs, then the Ottoman Turks, then came the British and the French, and now they are living under despotic tyrants like Hussein, Mubarak, and Assad and Kings like Abd Allah and Fahd. Really, they are so immature as a cultue that to expect them to govern themselves is unreasonable. We in the West have a choice. Either we can subjugate these people and force them to do our bidding, or we must completely withdraw from the region and accept whatever comes. The latter would require a callousness that western people rarely display so it is not likeley.

      The nomadic barbarians of the Middle Eastern deserts will never be able to govern themselves as long as they continue to develop their political theory based on the falshoods of the Qur’an and along sectarian, tribal, and family lines. Not one is willing to accept the compromises that modern western politics requires. Nuke ’em? It is a tempting proposition, but better would be for the United States to mobilize her vast industrial and scientific wealth and develop alternate energy technologies and then we can erect a huge wall around the entire benighted Islamic world and just let them drown in their, then useless, petroleum reserves. It really is about oil in the final analysis.

  • I’m getting pretty scared when I read all the comments posted here.. I accidentally jumped by this site, but I really can’t resist posting something to underline how dangerous religion obviously is. Both Christianity and Islam are two branches of the same human blindfold. Americans doesn’t seem to care about issues like moral, ethics and human understanding as long as they can stop by the local church every sunday. It looks like to foreighners that this is the basic way of life in America, and that nothing else matters as long as these activities are allowed to take place. Wow... Talking about fanatism... Obviously there are a lot of people "over there" (USA) that can’t look past their own prejudice and mind-limiting religion, and that are thinking of themselves as some sort of a self-proclaimed liberation army to the world. This is really frightening, and what’s even MORE frightening, is that a large number of citizens in the US don’t realize how much the rest of the world is backing away from this "plan". Europeans with a little bit of braincells (also known as intellectuals, which is a kind of group of people that your president doesn’t seem to be too found of) are actually laughing when americans become a subject in conversations, etc. To your information: There are about twice as many europeans as there are americans. Think about it.

    Regards from Norway

    • Are all other Europeans as into stereotyping as you seem to be? I don’t think so.

    • Well, you should sweep in front of your own door before you tell me to do mine...

      Of course I know that not all americans fit my description above, but there’s still a vast number that does. Just take a look at your present political situation. Why on earth haven’t you decided to "dethrone" your president a long time ago?? This man is obviously insane, and far from being smart, that’s for sure. So tell me why around 50% of the voters wanted this man as their president? That’s even MORE insane! The reason is probably all the evangelistic congregations in the US (your president is a dedicated member in one), and then I’m back to my original outburst; religion is opium to the people (70 mill. of you are supposed to be evangelistics, and then you have the protestants, catholics, and so on). Especially in this case it seem to be the truth. You lot are too blind to see that one man is trying to push upon other cultures the american way of living, as he is feeling obligated to do so because of his religious belief. This is what you’re doing in Iraq, and the excuse beforehand to do this was just lame. Not a shred of evidence that point out any traces of "WMD" have so far been found, and that just speaks for itself. The only reason for the US to enter Iraq, wasn’t in the first place to liberate the people of Iraq, but to gain control of the oil-resources. The liberation-bullshit came only as a handy excuse to do what was first priority. This is just obvious as we all know that the US is in a deep energy-crisis right now, and need all the oil it can get a hold of. This is so transparent to everyone except Americans which seem to trust their leader quite blindly (Aka. blindfolded).

      To foreighners like myself, the US looks more and more like a threat to human rights. Imagine what status you have among people in the Middle East? There’s a reason to why things are like they are, and that’s quite simple. From the rest of the world’s point of view, the US are the terrorists as they move on and try get rid of whatever THEY seem to be a threat (even if it’s really not). This, and the fact that everything should be like you want, and that you’re using deadly means to achieve that, is considered terrorism. Stop this, and you’ll see that no-one is really interested in crashing planes into buildings on american soil. Clean up your own back yard (which is quite dirty) before you go out in the world and start mayhem there. Get a grip of your own economy before you start wars, and please don’t push upon the rest of us your "doubble-moral" (which is quite annoying)

      (I’m wondering how americans see atheists, which is what I am...)

    • United states must stop supporting Israel financially

      The support from the US has caused much of this hatred towards Americans

      Israel is a strong country abusing its power and it is time that we amercans relize that we have no need of supporting a nation that brings us so much hatred. Israel must relize that the Nazi’s are dead and that time has passed and that they inturn have become like the Nazi’s themselves.

    • We really don’t care if you are athiest or not. you obviously do not understand our culture. we are free in the fact that we speak our mind no matter how crazy an opinion is, we have many rights others, even in europe, do not have. We as Americans, are a Nation of people who want a better life. Our ancestors come from every country, continent, Island or peninsula in the world. We learn from our mistakes ( do you see us rounding up all the muslims, arabs, or norweigans in to camps because we don’ t like or trust them? ) I am American, German, Irish, Scott, AMERICAN INDIAN. My ancestors have ALL suffered injustice at the hands of others, but America is still the most sought after way of life in the world. But please, do not mock us, I can’t imagine the pain you feel being such a highly intelligent indiviual ( as you describe so eloquently ), and live in such a wonderful, beautiful, albeit insignificant (on the world stage ) country. You never know when you might need us American brutes. W. Shilling, Texas, United States of America, Earth

    • Wow! I’m surprised that you even know where Europe is, yet alone Norway!

      It is quite clearly that your knowledge of how the world works is eqvivalent to the knowlege of an analphabet’s. I presume you know a lot of american history and such, but that is probably all you’re interested in. The rest of the world is outside your imidiate range, and therefore you give a rats ass about it too. Isn’t that right? What’s even sader, is that this goes for your national leadership also. Tragic! The world aren’t spinning around the US, you know. If I’m wrong, then you obviously know that Norway (and the rest of Scandinavia for that matter) has the best welfare in the world. We have probably the best living-standard of all countries, and Oslo (our capitol) were voted by the UN as the best city in the world to live in. We’re only 4,5 mill. habitants and have approx 30 murders each year! Compared to the US which have around 8000 of them each year, we should have had a LOT if you’d put it to scale. Happily, this isn’t a reality. A reason for this is of course our diplomatic culture and acceptance of other ethnic and religious groups.

      Claiming that the US is the best country in the world is nothing but bullshit from one end to another. At best, this is just another evidence of how ignorant many americans are. Have a little insight, for crying out loud!

      Yeah, and I SEE you’re rounding up the muslims just because you’re afraid of them. You’re thinking of one whole culture, or ethnic group as one bad bunch of criminals just because they won’t accept the american way of life. The fact that they won’t absorbe this is something all habitants of the world should be happy about. Otherwice this planet would be too small for all of us. If all 6 billion individuals had spend the same amount of for example energy as you did, then we would need approx. five or six identical planets to feed us. That’s something to think about. If everyone polluted as much as you do, then we would also be in deep shit.

      I should recommend you Michael Moore’s "Bowling for Columbine". His documentary will show you exactly how the rest of the world is perceiving americans and the US on a general basis. You’re afraid, and have always been. You buy a rifle and think that that will make you safe... Duh... Have you ever heard that violence is breeding more violence? Isn’t 9/11 one huge, tragic example of just that? I cried that day when I watched those two planes crash into WTC. Me as a norwegian, allmost on the other side of the world, sat there crying, feeling sorry for all those souls that were directly or indirectly hit by this act of terror. Of course this isn’t a way to deal with a problem, but nor is the american way of dealing with one! Giving Iraq the blame for what happend that day, is about as far fetched as to claiming that the world is flat! And that’s exactly what your president and his administration is doing today, sadly enough. Please wake up and face reality, instead of remaining inside that little ignorance-bubble of yours. It’s embarrassing. Really.

      Regards

      Oslo, Norway, Earth. Me

    • First, we claim this country to be the best because what it stands for! It is a groups of ideas that allow many rights and freedoms. Don’t get me wrong, its not easy! We do have our faults. Secondly, we are not rounding up Muslims around the world. We are rounding up known terrorists that want to destroy and bring harm to America. We are not trying to spread "the American way of life" to anyone. The people have to want and make their own country. A country that is a dictatorship is wrong! That is why we went to Iraq. To remove Saddam Hussein from power. Don’t forget, over 75% of the population lived in terror of he and his army, not to mention the millions he slaughtered. Also, to remove weapons of mass destruction. The fact that he used them on his own people is proof that he had them. You don’t just find 600 tons of mustard gas on a sheep farm or uranium cannisters on a farm in the country. Thirdly, as far as your pollution concerns, you need to do some more research on that. We have one of the lowest pollution ratings in the world. Try taking a look at Australia, China, Russia, France, Italy, and many other countries. Oh yeah, and we send vast amounts of wheat, corn, and soybeans, to most of all of these other countries, including ALL Scandanavian countries. And lastly, we know who attacked us on 9/11. You are turning words around like Michael Moore’s film. There is a known relation between al qaeda and Saddam Hussein. Iraq may not have known anything about 9/11 but the fact that they put their feet under the same blankets is something we have to look into! And back to Moore’s film. Your right, he does make some valid points but I hope you understand he represents a miniscule portion of people in America. Even strong liberals don’t believe everything he says. His business is making movies, not politics, not government, not working to shape an America that has made him very wealthy! His movies are a basic magic trick that allows him to get everyones attention in his right hand but yet to never show his left. What you have to remember is, for every Moore there is his opposite who believes in everything he doesn’t. However, Moore is an American. And because of America, he can make whatever he chooses and I think its great. Its what makes America a free nation. Before you bash the US, think about the world today and what it would be like if the US did not stop Hitler in Normandy.

      Peace to all

      A Proud American

    • Wow Oslo, didn’t realize you could know so much about someone you have never met.
      Do any of you (haters) actually think, or do you just regurgitate.
      When you can’t see what is going on, that isn’t my fault.
      When you cannot simply read Osama’s words and take them for what they are, that is your fault.
      I know why 9-11 happened, I know how to prevent future 9-11’s.
      I’m not a genius, I don’t get special briefing from the CIA.
      All you have to do is read Osamas words.
      Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. How many times did he have to say it.

      How long does it take you to realize that his hatred came from a situation that couldn’t have been much different.

      How would you have protected Kuwait, and the worlds oil supply?

      How would you have stopped Saddam from trying it again?

      Next...

      As Americans, we must not have any idea about anyplace other than America, despite the fact that we are a country of immigrants who came from the countries that we don’t know anything about. Pretty wierd, the entire world sends their children here to be educated, but we all don’t know anything. Your argument could not be any weaker. Worlds a big place, most people have jobs, families, and alot of things to be more concerned with than Norways health care...
      According to you, in order to learn what Europe thinks of me, I need to watch a left wing documentary that wasn’t even that good. Which makes me think, where are you getting your info from, our movies???

      To bad your tone and defensiveness reveal your own insecurities.

      Bowling for Columbine actual made me learn that despite the number of weapons in America, violent crime per capita in Europe is higher than in America. Specifically France and England.
      I saw other documentaries on Americas predisposition to violence, and they were actually scientific and scholarly, not propagandist and blatently stupid. Moore himself admitted it wasn’t the weapons that made America the way it is, as Canada has more guns per capita. He ignored scientific and psychological facts. And futhered his agenda while he did it. While proving nothing, and failing to make a point that any two people walking out of the film would agree on.
      I was hoping to learn from it, and I did.
      I learned how not to completely waste the forum, the opportuntity and the audience that one has.

      Now your from Norway, and so I just about everyone else in Norway. As opposed to countries that have a large mixture of different type of people.

      Norway is about 85-90 percent Christian, congradulations for that, but don’t knock America because it is not.

      Your have great health care, well what about population, size, immigration, etc.
      You cannot compare America and Norway. It would be like comparing Norway, and Wisconsin. (1/50th)

      No one claimed America was the best country in the world. Personally this shit is petty and boring.
      It’s weird how you hear what you want to hear.

      You are in need of a lesson.

      Accept the American way of life?

      Why don’t you go live under the Taleban. That isn’t un-American, it’s un-human.
      We aren’t trying to enforce Americanism, we are trying to encourage humanity.
      Why, because any scholar will tell you that the repressive nature of Arab governments, mixed with the lowly stature of Arabs in comparison to history and the world resulted in violent revolution.
      Name an arab country that hasn’t had a violent revolution in the last hundred years.

      And guess what, us Westerners, even Norwegians, had a hand to play in creating that, and therefore we can have a hand to play in fixing it. Unless you have accepted that certain people will always hate each other, and certain people cannot govern themselves. Pretty racist. Pretty complacent. Pretty much the cause of 9-11. Complacency.

      The sad thing that you don’t see is the incredible number of people who are rejecting hatred.
      Communism, Talebanism, not many people calling for rebirths of those governments.
      Maybe because people like to be free. Then after if they want to live like the Omish, go ahead.
      No one is stopping anyone from religion in the American system we are "imposing."

      Go to the most repressive regimes in the world, Iran, China, and you will find that their educated youth are the most pro-American in the world, why is that?

      You ignore reality. The reality of muslim intelectuals calling for their countries to reform, rejecting the misteachings and misdeeds of their past actions, and squarely blaming their own countries and the situations in their countries as what led to the huge amount of terrorists.

      Yes American foreign policy has made some mistakes, but would you rather welcome back the Soviet Union and the Cold War, despots and dictators, or would you like to stop being petty, move forward and make the best. Name a country that didn’t make a mistake...
      Name a country that has done more to fix their mistakes.

      Oslo makes some pretty pointless comments. If everyone polluted as much as we do?
      The ten most polluted cities on the earth are all not inside America.
      Norway itself has problems with "water pollution; acid rain damaging forests and adversely affecting lakes, threatening fish stocks; air pollution from vehicle emissions."

      Keep pointing fingers, it is really easy.

      No one blamed Iraq, not even the President, despite American media which misreports blatent facts. Try getting past the headlines, and actually reading the article. Propangandists plan on that, people never actually reading, just being affected by the advertising.

      The reality was that Iraq had already created 20,000 terrorists. Go read anything Osama Bin Ladin said, and you will find that the necessary restrictions placed on Iraq after Gulf War 1, and the necessary actions of the world to protect the oil fields, resulted in massive terrorist propaganda which recruited massive numbers.
      All the while Saddam built more palaces in a span of time than anyone in history, while Iraqi children are starving to death, yet he has bunkers of UNICEF goods that were supposed to be going to the starving children.

      I think that if we were face to face, you would be very apologetic, because you ignore alot, and it all makes you pointless. For all your defensive rhetoric, I’ll bash you up with scholarly facts.

      The situation needed to be handled if the war on Terror is ever to be stopped.
      Israel cannot be solved easily with a ruler like Saddam ready to stir shit up.
      Who is this sovereign ruler of the country anyway, one who can’t even go north or south of 40 percent of his country because he would have murdered them all, that is the de facto ruler that should be left in place to create 20,000 more terrorists through the next round of sanctions.
      You need to think and look a little deeper.
      All the accusations people make against America, how we alienated the world, how we are so arrogant, that was a reaction to a lesson we learned. You may have cried, but we cleaned up the bodies, and we learned. You Cried, we Learned. We learned this is a battle in the long term, 10-15 years. We learned that appeasement, and the UN did nothing but make terrorists.
      There are about 5-6 countries the UN has ever helped, and about 10 times that number that the UN ignored.

      Kosovo, go read some Osama, and you will find the the actions of the UN in Kosovo helped create Osama. How much do I need to teach you, and how much can you figure out.
      Ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age.

      Palestine, lets see, the Arab world calls for Isael to obey the UN.
      Well how did they respond to the UN in 1948? Now they want everyone else to listen the UN.

      What is the solution, you don’t have one, you have ten fingers, and you point them anywhere you can.

      I am actively engaged, and so are millions, in making things better.

      You are actively engaged in finger pointing.

      The great thing is, nothing comes out of your actions, but the future comes from mine.

    • Incredible that it’s possible to come up with that amount of pure bullshit...

      First of all, you don’t know your facts about Norway; we have a much more relaxed relationship with the church and the rest of that crap than what’s the case for America. Actually, almost 40% of us don’t have any connections with it what so ever. Besides that, we also have a LOT of immigration, especially related to our policies. Our capitol Oslo is now populated with approximately 35% immigrants from all over the world, next to all the others scattered around the country. We have some of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. Allright; we’re not big, but we engage ourselves in international conflicts. You’ve probably heard of the Oslo-agreement? We also have a heavy influence of what’s going on in Sri Lanka. We’ve done a whole lot of negotiating in different african countries, and we’ve done all this without any use of violence. And a great deal of it actually work. Imagine that! Not to forget: We’re also engaged in Iraq with military forces, but their tasks are solely humanitarian. We’ve sent thousands of troops to Kosovo and former Jugoslavia both during and after that war. We care, you see! But still: Have we had any terror-attacks or any threats coming our way? No, we haven’t. And please: don’t give me that finger-pointing crap!

      Talk as much as you want about why or why not anyone have any reason to go after american citizens and so forth. You’re in a dead-end regarding this if you have no perceptions of why this is happening. I’m feeling sorry for America if you by your statement is referring the general opinion among all americans. No wonder everyone is after your asses.

      You’re saying that Iraq had already produced 20.000 terrorists. Why, do you think? Just think about it. You might get some clues further down...

      It’s hideous that you say what you say about the UN. Without it, the worlds’ suffering would be multiplied by ten. At least. When you’re indirectly claiming that areas and regions that haven’t been, but now are stable as a result of american interference, it only proves my previously mentioned point about american arrogance. I can’t believe that someone can be THAT self-centered??? What? Do you think you’re some kind of a chosen people? Is that it? No wonder you’re backing up Israel like you do!

      Next important point:

      The reason for why some american universities are in the heavy-weight league among the world’s best universities, is solely because of your demography and the amount of funding that is a direct consequence from the first argument. This is economy one-on-one, and is a natural chain of reactions as all the right terms have been paved ahead for just this. Primarily because of your vast population, and of course the mentality that says "anything goes". This I admire.
      All research that require a lot of funding will also happen in areas where that funding exists, and of course a natural place for that to happen is, among other countries, the USA. But that doesn’t mean that everything is invented and researched upon there. Many things that americans have taken credit for, have actually been thought of and also been researched on, even made, in other countries by non-americans. A good example of that is the object-oriented programming that was first done by two norwegian guys in the 60’s. This was the first crucial step for what we today know as "Windows", among other things. I know a lot of examples that I’m pretty sure won’t fall in good soil among americans. For example the first successful flight with a motorized airplane wasn’t done by the Wright bros. but rather by a frenchman. He didn’t get the same amount of publicity, of course, and therefore wasn’t credited for this achivement. The problem is that you will take it for granted that it was americans that did these things. Wrong!

      Once more you are confirming my outburst of how egosentric a lot of americans are deep down. You’re claiming that all parents around the world are sending their children to american schools and univiersities. Guess what: Some are going across the Dam to educate themselves there, but that is only a fraction compared to the amount that stays home and take lessons at european universities and colleges. People aren’t coming to you because they feel that the training is so much better there, but rather because of the trip itself and the experiance it will involve. As a bonus, a person might learn something too. Anyway; my point isn’t to patronize american learning-institusions as they probably are the best thing that ever happened to America. Without these intellectual havens, America would probably be even more of an invader than what it already is.

      Get a grip! Look further than your own nose tip

      Regards from Norway

    • God dag Norge! Hyggelig å treffe deg!
      Now, it is time for you to listen and stop railling against all things American. You seem to forget that Norway is not the model of the world. Oh yes, your country has a very inclusive welfare program which is the envy of the (dependent third) world, but you fail to fill out the details. Whence comes this great wealth? Look to the North Sea. I know that you Olaf, or whatever your name is, know what I’m talking about, but I will explain for my ignorant self-centered American brothers and sisters. You see, the North Sea has a vast oil reserves. Some petro-geologists claim that the reserves in the North Sea rival those of the Middle East. At any rate, Norway controls many of the richest fields in the North Sea, but they have already nearly exahusted these reserves and are probalby going to run out in their own fields within 8 to 10 years. So, Norway has a vested interest in OPEC keeping Oil prices high. In fact, just last year, Statoil, Norway’s state owned oil company was caught with it’s pants down in a bribery scheme with Iranian oil officials which resulted in a number of Norwegian oil officials resigning. Of course, the Norwegian government found that the company was innocent of any wrong doing, but this is suspect as Statoil is run by the government. You see, Norway, and many European companies are out there pointing fingers at the US, but are privately praying that we don’t create a true free oil market which would serve as a buffer against OPECs unfair price gouging. Yep, the Norwegian people depend on Statoil for their precious socialist utopia. Just look at Norway in 15 years when the oil revenues start to drop and I guarantee that their "progressive" imigration policies will be a thing of the past.

      Olaf, you also take a high tone mentioning the Oslo accords (yes accords, not "agreements" as you put it. Get your facts straight, at least on things which take place inside your own country). Yeah, the Oslo accords were sponsored by the United States and, guess what, they were signed on the Whitehouse Lawn. Oslo was just a convenient neutral ground to hold the talks on. Norway contributed nothing but an uninvolved status. But I take no pride in these accords as they have been proven mostly moot in light of the unspeakable violence on both the side of the Palestinian terrorists and that of the Israeli tyrants.

      Now that I think of it, I can’t put my finger on one bit of Norwegian diplomacy which has resulted in anything other than a tenious peace in Sri Lanka and that was largely an Austrailian and Indian endevour. Oh, but I guess Peace in Sri Lanka has far reaching results. I just can’t see them. What has Norway contributed to African causes? All I see in Africa is formerly subjugated populations now treating the white minorities in their countries in the same, if not worse, manner that they complained to international courts about, AIDS ridden poplulations (by the way the US far outstrips any other part of the world in medical aid to Africa), and terrorist shopping malls and training grounds in the north. Oh, and genocide against non-muslim populations in Chad, Niger, Mauritania, and Sudan. You must be so proud as a Norwegian that your fine diplomatic corps has been so successful.

      You want to push the idea that since Norway has supported UN objectives that that makes your country so supportive of progress in the world. Anyone with eyes to see and read can see that the UN is and has always been an impotent body making the worst compromises at the worst times. All over the middle east you can see the results. Israel is probably the prime example. Without the UN (and zionists in the US government) Israel would have never become what it is and the horrible situation in the Middle East wouldn’t be what it is. But this is to be expected, the UN is simply an extention of the same failed philosophy which failed to stop the Nazi expansion in Europe (ask your Grand Parents about what happend and who saved the day, Olaf) and also created the landscape which made the Middle East the hot spot it is today under the League of Nations and its foolish mandate system.

      Then you go on to claim that European parents send their children to American Universities, not for the superior education, but for the experience. I doubt even people who are educated in the foolish precepts of socialism would fail to see that one should only buy the best education possible. Then you further go on to rehash that old cannard that it was really the French who achieved powered flight first. Nonsense! Lillienthal did indeed build an effective airfoil (the Wrights used it), but his engine was vastly underpowered to get the craft to do more than rumble along the ground. It was only after Lillienthal saw the Wright Brothers chain drive to two propellers that he was able to get his craft off the ground. Check your facts!

      So Norway has been untouched by Middle Eastern Terror? Yes, of course, Norway supports OPEC in that the organization keeps oil prices artificially high, and Norway is largely impotent in international affairs. What gain would there be in operating there?

      You are so proud of the fact that 40% of Norwegians are unaffiliated religiously? I think it is simply a function of a morally bankrupt society which is praying that their oil will hold out until something else comes along to support your welfare state so that everyone can take six month vacations and stand in line for medical care. Check out Norway in 15 years and I’ll bet that the Lutheran churches will be packed and the steps to the parliament will be lined with an unproductive people wondering where their next meal is comming from. It will probably be arriving on a ship carrying US grain! The prayers in the churches will be for the United States to prevail against the onslaught from those benighted Islamic barbarians! You all may e-mail me at dutchrub65@yahoo.com

    • Real simple:

      "You lot are too blind to see that one man is trying to push upon other cultures the american way of living, as he is feeling obligated to do so because of his religious belief. This is what you’re doing in Iraq, and the excuse beforehand to do this was just lame."

      "The only reason for the US to enter Iraq, wasn’t in the first place to liberate the people of Iraq, but to gain control of the oil-resources."

      Did the same person say both of these, one sentence after the other? :)
      Because one kind of contradicts the other.

      "There’s a reason to why things are like they are, and that’s quite simple. From the rest of the world’s point of view, the US are the terrorists as they move on and try get rid of whatever THEY seem to be a threat (even if it’s really not). This, and the fact that everything should be like you want, and that you’re using deadly means to achieve that, is considered terrorism. Stop this, and you’ll see that no-one is really interested in crashing planes into buildings on american soil."

      Actually, you took events after 9-11, and tried to make them the reason for 9-11.

      It is clear to everyone else that after 9-11 America responded differently than before 9-11.
      But you claim that the actions after 9-11, which weren’t going on before 9-11, are the real cause for 9-11.

      You also ignore all the writing and work coming from Arab intelectuals who tell quite simply why terrorism took hold so greatly. None of them would ignore American foreign policy, but none of them would blame it wholesale.

      Keep Haten
      P.S. I’m an atheist too : and we actually tend to be the majority in any intelligent discussion.
      Certain areas of the country are more religious, certain demographics are more religious.
      Any religious person would probably look at an atheist the same way an atheist looks at a religious person
      So the answer is, Americans see atheist’s not from the perspective of Americans, but from a religious or atheistic view point. The reason I answered is because it blatently shows how you are misinformed as to the religiousness of America, such that you would assume or imply that all Americans are caught up in religious fervor.

  • I’m starting a whole new thread so that it won’t get any narrower...

    Anyway, you’re wrong when you say that America has some of the lowest pollution-ratings in the world. That’s just not correct! Your industry is nothing compared to european, in the sence of environmental protection. You make cars (and use them more frequently) that uses more and more gas, just to satisfy your need for more bhp. You were the last country among all industrialized nations to ban freon-gases. You throw away more trash than anyone else on this planet. You consume twice as much meat than they on the second place, and you haven’t yet signed the Kyoto-agreement, which is a clear sign of what your administration stands for (all these facts can be looked up at www.oecd.org) They won’t accept the agreement as that might harm the US economy (trust me, I’m an economist with a special field on international economy). Don’t get me wrong, I’m for free markets and so on, but the american ultra-capitalistic utopian idea doesn’t gain anyone exept your self. That’s my whole point. America is egosentric in its way of thinking, but likes to see itself as a liberator of all countries that doesn’t get it right. But who is it to judge that things are wrong? The US? I don’t think so. You’re not the worlds’ watch-dog, if I might say so. The fact that you defied the UN prior to your invasion of Iraq, is a dreadful example of how NOT to solve problems. This wasn’t a question whether or not you were going to liberate the people of Iraq from a tyrant, but rather how you could get control of the huge reserves of oil and energy. The tyrant was only an superficially good excuse for you to invade, next to your "perfect alibi", the weapons of mass destruction. Which you haven’t found yet. BUT! You can walk down your own back yard, and you’ll find thousands upon thousands of tons of VX gas, biological weapons and nuclear intercontinental missiles. What if Europe suddenly felt threatened about that? What if our reaction-pattern were similar to the US’? What if we suddenly decided that enough is enough just because we didn’t like the fact that you have these weapons? You should be happy that we haven’t come that far in our barbaric way of thinking, as we are about twice as many as you are.

    Fair enough, Saddam had previously used this kind of weapons on his own people, and he held them in an iron grasp. Even so... What the hell has the US to do with that??? Did he threaten any US interests? None, except that you couldn’t reach the previously mentioned oil. Can you EVER prove that Saddam had anything to do with Al-Quaida? Nope, you can’t. You have probably the best intelligence agency in the world, but not even they have any hard evidence of this. And how little do you actually think of France, Germany, Russia, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Holland, Ireland, China, and so forth, when you claim on top of that, that you’re still right? One word covers this; arrogance!

    What I want to make clear, is that the UN would have found a way to deal with Saddam. As long as they didn’t act with a joint military force, you should have left the arena. That’s because, as I said before, you’re not the watch-dog. You’re not the worlds’ police. Get it? People have a tendency of getting frustrated and angry when they percieve you as just that. And that is also what you experience in Iraq at the moment. Mayhem and chaos, and I’m afraid that this will turn out to be a situation like what Vietnam was. Violence breed more violence, buddy.

    Michael Moore is obviously a filmmaker, but he’s doing his work with a distance to his own country. He puts himself "outside", if you get my drift. He projects the US as how people on the outside see you. I wouldn’t hide myself behind the fact that he’s making money out of this in a desperate attempt to undermine his work. Thing is, that what he shows you, is exactly how the vast majority of europeans, middle-easterns and asians are seeing you. This is our eyes on you. Don’t patronize that fact. By the way; someone mentioned free speech in America. Hehe... I just read yesterday, that an organization (think it was something like "Move America Forward") wanted to ban Moores’ new film "Fahrenheit 911". WOW! That wouldn’t even be thought of here in Europe, except maybe Turkey... Think about that. Who would want to be compared to a nation that is well-known for its political prisons? I wouldn’t...

    • Oh really? No European nation would ban or censor a movie? Let someone attempt to produce a movie that even remotely suggests that the Nazis might have had a point or that the Zionists might have been at least partly responsible for the way Facists suceeded all over Europe as an opposition to the inordinant amount of financial power held in Jewish hands during a devistating economic disaster. Yeah, I’ll bet that movie would break all kinds of box office records. Records for movie house closings. And you Europeans go around saying how enlightened you are and then contradict yourselves in your attitude toward Israel. Europe is to blame for most of the problems in the Middle East. Look to Sykes-Picot, the Blafour declaration, the League of Nations Mandate system, and the 1948 UN resolutions on Israel. And then you all try to hold the US responsible. It’s the same old song and dance. Europe creates a cesspool telling the US to butt-out, then when tanks are rolling down their streets they beg for our help. If only I could figure a way to make isolationist policy work in today’s world, I’d tell all of you to pack sand! Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia

    • Oslo,

      You washed over just about everything I said, attacked the points which really were not the thrust of the statement. Then you ignore the whole meaning of what I said.

      My numbers on Norway came from the CIA fact book, because I didn’t have time to fly over to Norway and do an interview. Norway has no official immigration policy.

      "Talk as much as you want about why or why not anyone have any reason to go after american citizens and so forth. You’re in a dead-end regarding this if you have no perceptions of why this is happening. I’m feeling sorry for America if you by your statement is referring the general opinion among all americans. No wonder everyone is after your asses."

      Actually, I covered that in detail, but you failed to get past your own perceptions on that, because we’re arrogant and egocentric and self centered, and you feel sorry for US. To bad I gave much better reasons for why we are being attacked than that we are arrogant and self centered.

      I didn’t say your country was a country of finger pointers, I said you were a finger pointer, and your are. You ignored any real point I made, and attacked me. That is finger pointing. You got defensive, lost sight of the argument, and pointed your fingers.

      I also never said "all the parents in the world" My point was that just about every country, even the ones who hate us, send their kids here for the experience for the knowledge, yet we are arrogant self centered and don’t know anything about anything outside our borders. Your the one spewing rhetoric, not me. I attacked you in no way, I just gave you some points to think about, and you didn’t even do that, because you would have to get past your preconcieved notions, and egotistical desire to defend yourself.

      To bad as I showed, the whole world had a culpibility in creating terror. And the UN certainly played a part. It wasn’t just American arrogance, and self centered ignorance.

      "You’re saying that Iraq had already produced 20.000 terrorists. Why, do you think? Just think about it. You might get some clues further down... " why because we are ignorant arrogant and self centered. That is the only point you made, and I guess the only point I was countering. To classify a group of people as you have reminds me of the "good" reasons to hate jews, or hate arabs, or hate blacks. To be racist? Well the reasons go much much deeper than that.

      It wasn’t Iraq directly, it was as a result of the situation in Iraq, that 20,000 terrorists joined ranks. Listen to the rhetoric, they post it in enough places. The UN imposed sanctions, created a tragedy, and that tragedy bolstered terrorism. I had no more of a hand in that than you did.

      "It’s hideous that you say what you say about the UN. Without it, the worlds’ suffering would be multiplied by ten. At least. When you’re indirectly claiming that areas and regions that haven’t been, but now are stable as a result of american interference, it only proves my previously mentioned point about american arrogance. I can’t believe that someone can be THAT self-centered??? What? Do you think you’re some kind of a chosen people? Is that it? No wonder you’re backing up Israel like you do!"

      It is hideous to repeat the reasons terrorists give for their revolution.
      Or is it hideous to tell me I don’t know cause and effect, when I show you cause and effect, and then you attack me as arrogant and self centered. As if someone being arrogant and self centered was a reason to murder 3000 people.

      The US and UN have helped people, I don’t know what your point is. "When you’re indirectly claiming that areas and regions that haven’t been, but now are stable as a result of american interference, it only proves my previously mentioned point about american arrogance."

      So no regions were unstable before UN or American intervention, but are now stable?
      You stumble over yourself. America has helped, the UN has helped, but we have hurt to, and we need to approach that maturely, find out what peoples real grievences are (not that we are arrogant and self centered), what caused them to take the courses of action that they did.

      "What? Do you think you’re some kind of a chosen people?"

      Don’t you see how you marginalize yourself with this rhetoric. We don’t think we are the chosen people, we try and accept the responsibility that history has handed us, while not having to bring home coffins to now childless mothers. If you don’t like how we handle things, then make a mature argument, don’t spit vitriol.

      By fighting the war from the air in Kosovo (to ensure coffins didn’t come home to now childless mothers), and not protecting the Muslims as we did the Christians, the UN gave radical muslims an open opportunity to feel wronged.
      And Osama talks about it all the time. Same with the dead Iraqi children that the US and UN helped create, although in reality the blame lies with Saddam.

      Doesn’t seem to me like I am arrogant, I just listed a couple of things that America and the world fucked up on. Seems more to me that you take offense to things with no grounds.
      And seems to me that you apply the same defense that many Europeans do, I’m arrogant, I’m self centered, and I don’t look past my nose.

      Well I did look, looked right into the real causes of the current situation, accepted Americas role, and the Worlds role in it, and got ready to do the work.

      "I’m feeling sorry for America if you by your statement is referring the general opinion among all americans. No wonder everyone is after your asses."

      Why because I see cause and effect. I’m self centered because I realize that the list of people the UN has helped doesn’t compare to the list that they didn’t. Same goes for America.

      Kosovo, despite all our (UN) troops being there resulted in massacres which were used by islamists to further their propaganda.
      Iraq despite the neccesity of intervention, became a rallying cry for Islamists.

      What you show me is that without being attacked verbally, you can manifest your own perceptions of being attacked. You draw conclusions that are not being made, and use them to further your bias. No one ever said that everything is researched and created in the US, no one ever said that Europe or France hasn’t contributed to science and history. When you go off on those tangents, and defend something that wasn’t even accused, and totally change the tone and direction of the discussion away from what was being discussed, you show your defensive nature.

      Then you feel the need to prove your worth, Norwegians or Europeans worth, no one questioned it, but apparently you need to defend it.

      I find this to be a paramount issue. You create friction and animonsity where there was none.
      Your argument would assume things that are never said or implied.
      And that speaks about you, not me. Because no one ever said anything that would warrant you bringing up OOD, or the wright brothers. I mean what are you talking about. No one ever said anything to disparage you, Norway or Europe. You were doing that to America, and I felt the need to show you that things aren’t that simple.

      I responded to you verbally attacking America and Americans, and I attacked no Norwegians or Europeans in response, yet you respond as if I had. I stated some facts, which in regards to religious affiliation, all I could go on was recorded numbers in an almanac for 2003. And without an official immigration policy, and with notices on russian websites that you would be better off when trying to leave Russia to go somewhere with an immigration policy, it didn’t seem like the makeup of Norway would have the vast differences of people that are in America.

      You confronted 4 points that I made, but completely ignored the rest. You took 1/20th of my post, and responded essentially to that alone.

      Unfortunately you and everyone else seemed to miss the important points in the post, and they weren’t a defense or an attack, they were the cause and effect of the current situation.
      Which you ignored, and accusatorily claim I am ignorant of.

      I’ll post my name from now on to make things easier.

      Mr. Clark, Long Island, NY

    • My bad, it is not that Norway has no Immigration Policy, which I erroneously stated having read this

      http://www.russia.no/immigration/

      They said Immigration Program, but they seem to be wrong also. Their reaction appears to be the cause of the tightening of restrictions on Asylum seekers, and the effect that has on Russians.

      But my point was that America has an extremely diverse population. And I unfortunately quoted the first source I came across. Despite my error though, it doesn’t seem that Norway has some of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. But if they do, congrats, because that doesn’t change the reality of the diversity of America. This point came up in regards to a comment that Norway has less murders. Personally, I feel that the mixture of cultures in America, our heterogeneous societies, have contributed to crime. Homogeneous societies are less likely to commit violent crimes against each other.

      "and it was not until the mid-seventies that people who were visibly different from the ethnic Norwegians became an element in daily life."
      http://www.alli.fi/nuorisotutkimus/julkaisut/virtanen/3/1.html

      Compare that to this table here,

      http://www.killology.com/art_weap_sum_worldwide.htm

      and you will find that "serious assault" and "murder" in Norway has increase more from 1977 to 1993 than it did in America for the same time period. Murder increasing more than three times in Norway, while marginally increasing in America, with serious assault going up approximately 5 times in Norway to Americas less than 2 times.

      The wrong comment on Norways immigration policy really was not the crux of my argument (or even really a part of it), and I would hope it is not used again to ignore all the other points I made.

      Mr. Clark, Long Island, NY

    • Thank you Mr. Clark for your eloquent and well documented arguments. While I disagree as to the extent of U.S. culpability in the current Middle-East/world-wide terror problems, the primary bases of your arguments are sound. Thank you for speaking to the typical strident Euro-voice and putting the facts on the line. On thing I want to know from Europeans (especially those of Scandanavia) is why do they insist on whining about the conditions of the world, then whining about the attempts to solve those problems that the U.S. undertakes? If you (Europe in general and Scandanavia in particular) have all the answers, then YOU do something. Frankly, I’d be happy to go home be a Father and a Husband again (I’ve been deployed in one capacity or another all over the Middle East essentially non-stop since October of 2001---that’s right folks, nearly three years!). But if doing nothing is your answer, that is unacceptable. The world cannot afford to allow the barbaric Jihadists take over the world. They are as much a threat as the Facists, the Imperialist Japanese, and the Communists were, if not more. Thanks again.
      dutchrub65@yahoo.com

    • Actually, to those of us in Africa... the USA and their biatch... Israel is the greatest threat to the world... not the Jihadis.

      Oh ... and behalf of all of Africa... thanx for the aid ... we’ve been waiting since 1999... Clinton promised, then Bush promised... thought id mention it before you went on and on and on again about all the aid the US has given to Africa.

      And btw... thanx from the millions of people in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Angola, the DRC, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Zimbabwe... for NOT stopping the genocides there. How come the great USA never saw fit to remove the dictators in THOSE countries? No oil or not enough oil?

      Oh and thanx for teaching our children to eat that crap you call McDonalds... now we have crap nutrition to help us die of Aids.

      P.S: You know where Africa is, dont u?

      Vive le France and Vive le Norway :)

      America... the world hates you... but of course the whole world is wrong and only America is right.
      Take your stupid Fords and Hollywood and shove it. I personally boycott American products and more and more people I know are boycotting American products. Who needs Coca Cola?
      In South Africa you dont die from drinking the tap water.
      I would LOVE it if my government called for sanctions against America.

      All you give the world is hatred and war.

      I cried to on 9/11... but now I wish they had hit The White House... but of course... how can the REAL terrorists hit their own head quarters?
      You people are deceived. Your president is a lunatic and the news you get is not the news people get in the rest of the world.

      NEWSFLASH: Its only the US that see the Arabs as terrorists... the rest of the world sees America as the TRUE terrorists. Your CIA made Al Qaeda and Reagan was Saddam’s pal. And btw anyone who is stupid enuff to believe anything they get from the CIA is completely brainless... guess you also believe that Oswald shot JFK, huh?

      All that television is making you Americans stupid. Switch off your tv’s and your retarded radio stations. Stop listening to Limbaugh. Stop listening to Bush. You talk about God and in the same breath you say ’nuke ’em’... call yourselves Christian?

      Jesus is dying of shame... you’re a disgrace to Christians the world over.

      You talk about freedom and bringing freedom to people who dont have it. And you’re too stupid to realise that your new Patriot Act means that you have NO rights anymore. You live under an illusion of freedom, my poor sad American friends. Research the rise of Hitler and Fascism in Germany and if you’re really smart, you will see in what direction America is heading.

      And when you’re done with that, think about how Hitler thought he was invincible because he had the best and biggest armies in the world. And guess where Hitler’s ass is now? And Hitler called himself a ’Christian’ too... he said the Jews were evil because they killed Jesus... just like you’re saying nuke the Sand Niggers because they worship a false God.
      You people are so effed up its not even funny... Some smart dude once said, ’he who doesnt learn from the past, is bound to repeat it’.

      I would suggest your ignorant Americans go learn some history, and maybe you can stop your country heading the way of Germany.

      Have a good day

      With lots of commiserations

      Africa

    • This is so typical of the substandard nations of the world. i don’t know from which country in Africa you hail, but whichever it is I have one question, why are you expecting aid from the US (by the way, the US gives more than 3 times the aid to African nations than the entire rest of the planet combined, so you’re welcome) and why are you not getting off of your collective arse (ass for my fellow Yankee Dogs) to PRODUCE something. Yes, I can guess that you are one of those millions who lambastes capitalism, but if socialism (or whatever other sad excuse for an economy you have in your country) is so terrific, then why do you need monetary aid from the "Evil" USofA? It seems that if your system were working you’d have no need for any aid. Are you going to blame the US for the political, ethnic, and religious wars being fought throughout the continent? That would be strange because that would imply that you would like to see the US intervening to help preserve human rights and help to improve your economic and political system. Yet, now that the US has done just that in Iraq I am hearing nothing but criticism from much of the rest of the world. Yes, I know that the poulation of Africa and Europe and many other parts of the world are saying that the Iraq situation was just because of the oil. I can not deny that oil was a motivating factor, mostly because that ammount of wealth allowed Saddam to buy and produce chemical biological and nuclear weapons and use them in an attempt to blackmail his neighbors and contgroll the people in his own country. Saddam was a regional and international threat whereas the numerous African warlords are mostly local and internal threats so it is not in the US interest as much to intervene. Oh, also the last time the US tried to intervene and assist getting food to starving Somalis people killed our soldiers. Why? Because the local warlord was about to lose his control over the starving populace. So, our then president pulled our troops out. I think that was a bad idea, but we were in a bad position and he thought it best to leave. But I suppose Somalia is better for having the American "occupation" removed right? What a crock! I am also getting fed up with folks outside the US being angry for "forcing" their children to eat McDonalds. Do not your children have parents? Can their parents not control what their children eat? I have three McDonalds whithin two miles of my home, yet my son has only had McDonalds three or four times in his life and he is 5 years old. This is because I exercised a choice and some self-discipline and refuse to expect that someone else is going to take care of me or my family. This is just the trouble with much of the world. Countries in Europe, and Africa and some in Asia expect America to play Daddy and reach for his wallet whenever some inconvenience makes life tough. Well just as any wise parent would do, the US needs to start forcing other "less fortunate" nations to take an active part in solving their own troubles and stop depending on Uncle Sugar to rush in with aid. So what is your solution, Africa? I see that you have clear sight and can detect the flaws of a nation an ocean and a hemisphere away. Let’s see you use that vision for something productive in your own nation and on your own continent and not just for blind angry criticism. Drop me a line sometime, I’d love to correspond with you.

      dutchrub65@yahoo.com

    • You might give away more aid than the rest of the world combined, but compared to GDP per. capita it’s small change compared to many other countries.

    • While your waiting for your handout, get off your butts and develop your country. Is that what a 3rd world nation does? Sit around and blame the world for its plight instead of doing something about it. The world can think what they want about America. Big deal! OOOOOH! They don’t want to be our friends. What are you in 3rd grade? And Rush Limbaugh is the opposite of Michael Moore. These 2 men are expressing their RIGHTS that America gives them. Lets see you speak out against your country and see if you wake up tomorrow.
      But as far as your comment about a "disgrace to Christians around the world", shame on you! I am a Christian, a father and a husband. I live my life through God. I raise my children to love, respect and honor God, their family and their country. I pray that you have peace in your life so you don’t have to live with the hate, remorse, and jealousy that your letter employs.